No Progress

[Jamessmithson]

Hi,

My friends and girl friends all say they can't tell I go to the gym and I'm wasting my time. Even when I had cut in the summer and weighed 64kg. So I've started doing a program where I do 210 sets a week.



My journey: last two years I consistently train and bulk and cut, tracking my calories, macros and weight. I train with high intensity (rpe 9/10) and great form, but I don't get sore at all.



Overall, I’ve focused on my back. I've done an upper lower body split 4x a week. Each week I've done in total:

6 x squats 80kg, 3 x Romanian deadlifts 110kg, 3 sets of hip thrusts, 6 sets of pullups/chin-ups 8 reps, 6 x barbell rows 10x65kg, 3 x overhead press 30kgx10, 6 sets of triceps, 6 sets of hammer curls, 7 sets of biceps, 6 sets of face pulls. 36 sets abs a week. 10 sets side delt raises, 10 sets rear neck training, 10 sets hip abductor work. I progressively overload when I can and deload around every 6 weeks. No momentum, v slow eccentrics on all exercises.



before the last two years Many martial arts. I've consistently trained the big compound moves and abs 3x a week since I was 16 and a half, but without bulking and cutting (odd how some friends became massive without ever bulking and cutting!).



Diet last two years

I eat the same thing every day



Meal 1 immediately after waking up.

500g whole milk (when cutting skimmed milk), 35g 5% fat beef (total 2.5g leucine).

100g carrots

30g whole oats



Gym training session



Meal 2: 4/6 hours after waking.

3 medium eggs (150g), 35g 5% fat beef (total 2.5g leucine).

250g frozen spinach

200g frozen brussel sprouts

250 frozen brocolli

300g oats (30g when cutting)

40g seeds (360 calories fat)



meal 3: 4/6 hours later

75g 5% fat beef (total 2.5g leucine).

50g oats



meal 4:

120g lean wild alaskan salmon immediately before bed (total 2.5g leucine)



Overall very rough macros a day:

170g protein, 55g fat

Cutting: 2000 calories, 170g carbs

Bulking: 2750 calories, 330g carbs. I made it 3400 calories for the new super high-volume program.

I gain and loose around .5% bodyweight a week.





Progress: I'm now 21 years old, 5'10 and 70kg, 18 percent bodyfat. I can't attach progress pics.


Are those strength numbers and pictures worryingly small for someone of my experience?



New program

I've designed a new super high-volume program to run for a short duration before my tendons and fatigue becomes excessive. I try to add a set per week of each muscle group trained to progressively overload. I ran it for the last few weeks, and I'm finally getting sore! Please find it below
I do a deep stretch on many of these, and a drop set / myoreps on the last set of all isolation and machine movements
I vary the isolation lifts a lot but try to keep the compounds relatively similar
Monday Legs and Neck
Leaning cable side delt raise, 5 sets
Step apart (hip abductors), 5 sets. I have tight hips and a previous hip flexor injury.
Calf raise, 5 sets
Tibia raise, 5 sets (for healthy knees and ankles, to balance my calves)
Seated leg curl machine, 2 sets
Hack squat, 3 sets
Glute bridge, 3 sets
Rear neck (applying pressure with my hands), 5 sets. (My neck is weirdly long and skinny)
Tuesday Pull
Lat pulldown, 3 sets
Dumbbell Hammer Curl, 3 sets
EZ-Bar Curl (biceps), 2 sets
Incline bench dumbbell stretch bicep curl, 4 sets
Meadows row, 3 sets
Lat Dumbbell pull over, 2 sets
Rear delt fly, 3 sets
Cable face pull, 3 sets
Abs (3 sets woodchopper each side, 3 sets leg raise, 3 sets plank and serratus anterior)
Wrist curls (due to some elbow pain and for elbow health). 3 sets of pronated, 3 supinated.
Wednesday Push and Shoulders
Leaning cable side delt raise, 5 sets
Dumbbell y raise lying on an 80 degree bench (to hit side delts and lower traps), 3 sets
Overhead press, 4 sets
Incline barbell bench press, 4 sets
Tricep pushdowns, 3 sets
Overhead tricep extensions, 3 sets
Leaning chest dip, 3 sets
Abs (3 sets dumbbell crunch, 3 sets lower leg raise rotating, 3 sets plank)
Thursday Legs and Traps
Step apart (hip abductor), 5 sets.
Calf raise, 5 sets.
Tibia raises, 5 sets.
Nordic leg curl, 2 sets.
Hack squat, 3 sets.
Romanian deadlift, 3 sets.
Shrugs, 3 sets.
Rear neck, 3 sets.
Friday Pull
Forearm curl (palms down), 3 sets.
Cable bicep curl, 2 sets
Chin-ups, 3 sets
Chest-supported machine row, neutral grip, 3 sets
Rear delts cable fly, 3 sets
Face pull, 3 sets
Abs (3 sets woodchopper each side, 3 sets leg raise, 3 sets plank and serratus anterior)
Wrist curls 3 sets of pronated, 3 supinated.
Saturday Push
Dumbbell y raise lying on an 80 degree bench (to hit side delts and lower traps), 3 sets
Overhead press, 4 sets
JM press (triceps), 3 sets
overhead tricep extension, 3 sets
Feet elevated pushups, 4 sets (progressively overloading with how far bench is on shins/feet and angle)
Deficit pushup, 3 sets
Leaning chest dips, 3 sets
Sunday Biceps, brachioradialis, abs
Forearm curl palms down, 3 sets
Dumbbell hammer curl, 3 sets
Hercules biceps, 3 sets
Incline dumbbell stretch curl, 2 sets
Abs (dynamic side plank 3 sets, dumbbell crunch 3 sets, plank 3 sets, rotating leg raise 3 sets).
Face pull, 3 sets.

[aurelius]

Your issue isn't programming. I'd dump that huge wall of text program and just go with a basic strength program. Rule of thumb for when hypertrophy type training becomes more effective is after you have gained a level of strength around 2xBW squat and deadlift, 1.5xBW bench, BW overhead press. I'd focus on getting stronger with your programming.

The reason you don't look like you lift is you are underweight at 5'10" and 70 kg (154 pounds). To 'look like you lift' your weight needs to push up closer to 91 kg (200 pounds). You are young. Still putting on your man weight. Keep lifting, eat more, and you will get results.

Don't lift for other people's approval. Fuck them. Lift for you.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Rule of thumb for when hypertrophy type training becomes more effective is after you have gained a level of strength around 2xBW squat and deadlift, 1.5xBW bench, BW overhead press. .

I can't squat 2xBW not can I press 1xBW. Hypertrophy training is working perfectly fine for me lol. But yeah I agree with the general idea behind the comment.

[Zak]

Your issue isn't programming. I'd dump that huge wall of text program and just go with a basic strength program. Rule of thumb for when hypertrophy type training becomes more effective is after you have gained a level of strength around 2xBW squat and deadlift, 1.5xBW bench, BW overhead press. I'd focus on getting stronger with your programming.

The reason you don't look like you lift is you are underweight at 5'10" and 70 kg (154 pounds). To 'look like you lift' your weight needs to push up closer to 91 kg (200 pounds). You are young. Still putting on your man weight. Keep lifting, eat more, and you will get results.

Don't lift for other people's approval. Fuck them. Lift for you.

Not much more to say than this. I would not do anything like that program you posted.

At 5'10, you're not going to look like you lift until your lifts are around 300/400/500 B/S/D or fairly close to that at least. Just the way it is.

Get strong brother. This site is full of smart folks which is wonderful but getting big and strong is not necessarily an undertaking that selects for intellect. Pick a very simple program and put your head down for a couple months/years.

I would not bulk/cut...I would start with a low or at least acceptable level of bodyfat and eat enough to gain at a slow, steady rate and try to live with getting a little soft.

To summarize, do what you need to drive your big lifts up. 3/4/5 is a good target. People shit on abbreviated training around here but anything from Brawn or similar would be 1000x better than your 200 sets/week or whatever. Any bare-bones canned program or philosophy is fine too. Get the original 5/3/1 book and do that for 3 years.

Good luck man

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@Jamessmithson Here's a few remarks that crossed my mind:
- Like @aurelius said you probably need to gain weight. If I were you I'd give myself a 1-2 year period of gaining about 1kg per month, and reassess the situation. I think the target weight he mentioned (about 90 kgs if you are 5'11) is pretty good as a long term objective (I'm around this ballpark and I do look like I lift).
- Looking at your program I'd guess that you don't know how to program for yourself yet (no offense). If I were you I'd pick up a program written by a reputable coach, and run it. Just run the program to the letter without changing anything, and try to get stronger on your compound exercises every week, which you should be able to do if you're eating and sleeping. Here are some templates that could be good (if you cant decide, cast a dice, and that's your program):

* one of the Barbell Medicine templates
* the Stronger by Science Reps to Failure program
* 5/3/1 Building the Monolith
* Super Squats

- You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) and probably spend too much time on the internet. Stop counting leucine, stop worrying about slow eccentrics stop trying to evaluate your MRV stop worrying about the size of your forearms or or any of that stuff. Cook good food and eat it, get stronger every week in the gym and if the number on the scale does not go up then cook more good food. Especially if you have trouble putting on weight, you want food to be tasty so that eating is not a chore.

- In general, if you care mostly about muscle size. I wouldn't worry about strength standards (like "you must S/B/D those numbers and then you'll look jacked") because they're not helpful. Say you hit those numbers but you still look small or you are already look big but can't hit them. What happens next ? Now I'd worry about getting stronger than you currently are, which is a different thing than meeting a standard. If you're at this level, the weight you can do for 5 or 10 reps on your big compound movements should increase every week (on average, sure you'll have some ups and downs).

[Jamessmithson]

Your issue isn't programming. I'd dump that huge wall of text program and just go with a basic strength program. Rule of thumb for when hypertrophy type training becomes more effective is after you have gained a level of strength around 2xBW squat and deadlift, 1.5xBW bench, BW overhead press. I'd focus on getting stronger with your programming.

The reason you don't look like you lift is you are underweight at 5'10" and 70 kg (154 pounds). To 'look like you lift' your weight needs to push up closer to 91 kg (200 pounds). You are young. Still putting on your man weight. Keep lifting, eat more, and you will get results.

Don't lift for other people's approval. Fuck them. Lift for you.

Thank you! Isn't hypertrophy still suitable for beginners? I find it tough to do 5 reps, and am scared I'll hurt myself.
https://drive.proton.me/urls/C1KZN2VK5C#Pp1eqRLyANuW
pics of my progress. I'm already quite high body fat at 70kg. 90kg seems impossible!





Vids of me training. I certainly don't think I can do more reps with decent form- and am hitting 6 reps on the squats. Maybe the pauses, deep stretch, slow reps, and high bar squats are why the numbers are low?

[Jamessmithson]

Your issue isn't programming. I'd dump that huge wall of text program and just go with a basic strength program. Rule of thumb for when hypertrophy type training becomes more effective is after you have gained a level of strength around 2xBW squat and deadlift, 1.5xBW bench, BW overhead press. I'd focus on getting stronger with your programming.

The reason you don't look like you lift is you are underweight at 5'10" and 70 kg (154 pounds). To 'look like you lift' your weight needs to push up closer to 91 kg (200 pounds). You are young. Still putting on your man weight. Keep lifting, eat more, and you will get results.

Don't lift for other people's approval. Fuck them. Lift for you.

Not much more to say than this. I would not do anything like that program you posted.

At 5'10, you're not going to look like you lift until your lifts are around 300/400/500 B/S/D or fairly close to that at least. Just the way it is.

Thank you! Please see my previous reply about strength training. Also, John Meadows' advanced programs are 160 sets a week. I do around 50 sets of things like rear neck, hip abductors, face pulls, and wrist curls for injury prevention and small touches. Is my volume really that ridiculous?

Get strong brother. This site is full of smart folks which is wonderful but getting big and strong is not necessarily an undertaking that selects for intellect. Pick a very simple program and put your head down for a couple months/years.

I would not bulk/cut...I would start with a low or at least acceptable level of bodyfat and eat enough to gain at a slow, steady rate and try to live with getting a little soft.

To summarize, do what you need to drive your big lifts up. 3/4/5 is a good target. People shit on abbreviated training around here but anything from Brawn or similar would be 1000x better than your 200 sets/week or whatever. Any bare-bones canned program or philosophy is fine too. Get the original 5/3/1 book and do that for 3 years.

Good luck man

[Jamessmithson]

@Jamessmithson Here's a few remarks that crossed my mind:
- Like @aurelius said you probably need to gain weight. If I were you I'd give myself a 1-2 year period of gaining about 1kg per month, and reassess the situation. I think the target weight he mentioned (about 90 kgs if you are 5'11) is pretty good as a long term objective (I'm around this ballpark and I do look like I lift).
- Looking at your program I'd guess that you don't know how to program for yourself yet (no offense). If I were you I'd pick up a program written by a reputable coach, and run it. Just run the program to the letter without changing anything, and try to get stronger on your compound exercises every week, which you should be able to do if you're eating and sleeping. Here are some templates that could be good (if you cant decide, cast a dice, and that's your program):

* one of the Barbell Medicine templates
* the Stronger by Science Reps to Failure program
* 5/3/1 Building the Monolith
* Super Squats

- You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) and probably spend too much time on the internet. Stop counting leucine, stop worrying about slow eccentrics stop trying to evaluate your MRV stop worrying about the size of your forearms or or any of that stuff. Cook good food and eat it, get stronger every week in the gym and if the number on the scale does not go up then cook more good food. Especially if you have trouble putting on weight, you want food to be tasty so that eating is not a chore.

- In general, if you care mostly about muscle size. I wouldn't worry about strength standards (like "you must S/B/D those numbers and then you'll look jacked") because they're not helpful. Say you hit those numbers but you still look small or you are already look big but can't hit them. What happens next ? Now I'd worry about getting stronger than you currently are, which is a different thing than meeting a standard. If you're at this level, the weight you can do for 5 or 10 reps on your big compound movements should increase every week (on average, sure you'll have some ups and downs).

I followed strength programs from reputable coaches for years (doing 8-12 reps instead of 5) for years and didn't see progress. The program I made is highly inspired by John Meadows' programs. And I spent a long time learning how to program etc - I'm probably still doing it wrong though!

' You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) '
A lot of that was for health, and meat isn't cheap or easy to cook so I weigh it. Also so I know my calories to bulk and cut.


As for 90kg, I'm 70kg now with body fat. Is it possible I have a lighter body structure? 90kg seems like a lot, even if I put on lots of muscle!

[DanCR]

@Jamessmithson, I'm gonna reiterate some things that the dudes above said, because I think that they bear repeating.

The fact that you've apparently bulked and cut multiple times in a two-year period, while weighing around 150 lbs, is crazy pants stuff. I'm not suggesting that you fat fuck yourself, but, as said above, you should be slow bulking over a long period without any thought of cutting. You're already measuring out your food, which is more diet discipline than 99% of people (me included), so slowly upping your calories to gain weight without doing so too quickly and having it all run to fat should be relatively easy for you.

As far as training, the problem is that you're weak. It's true: hypertrophy training does not work unless and until you're able to lift weights that provide the necessary stimulus. What that means is different for everyone, and a 300/400/500 bench/squat/deadlift may not be in your future (or maybe it is!), but I'd say that at the very least you need you be able to hit a quality set of 5 with 225/275/325.

This is why you're weak:

I progressively overload when I can and deload around every 6 weeks. No momentum, v slow eccentrics on all exercises.

Number one, at your current level of strength, you should be able to add weight nearly every session to the compound exercises and you should run a program that encourages doing so. It's much maligned around here but you could do much worse than just running Starting Strength - not forever like the cult members, but until you well and truly stall. Then move on to any of the other programs referenced here. There are a number of things about the SS novice linear progression that I'd change, but I'm not even gonna get into that. We're talking max 3 months of your training life. It doesn't matter. Progressively overloading "when you can" ain't gonna cut it, nor is doing so using volume (i.e. adding sets) at this level of strength. That comes later.

Number two, at your current level of strength, there is zero reason to be deloading. That too is for later (if ever, should you later pursue hypertrophy over strength).

Number three, please cut the shit with the "no momentum, very slow eccentrics." It's nearly impossible to get stronger doing that. That shit - if it's for anyone - is for bodybuilders who are already very strong and on drugs. You need to reasonably control the eccentric and that's it.

Bonus, although you didn't ask: I checked out your youtube channel and strongly suggest reworking your squat form. You're initiating the squat entirely with your hips, sitting back. That's for geared powerlifters and is gonna result in a lack of quadriceps growth and, eventually, a fucked up lower back. Google "squat school Jackie Perez" for what you should be doing. (Pouring one out for the Max era of Juggernaut. RIP.)

[mgil]

Some wild shit in this thread.

OP, you need to get into a better gym.

[Jamessmithson]

@Jamessmithson, I'm gonna reiterate some things that the dudes above said, because I think that they bear repeating.

The fact that you've apparently bulked and cut multiple times in a two-year period, while weighing around 150 lbs, is crazy pants stuff. I'm not suggesting that you fat fuck yourself, but, as said above, you should be slow bulking over a long period without any thought of cutting. You're already measuring out your food, which is more diet discipline than 99% of people (me included), so slowly upping your calories to gain weight without doing so too quickly and having it all run to fat should be relatively easy for you.

As far as training, the problem is that you're weak. It's true: hypertrophy training does not work unless and until you're able to lift weights that provide the necessary stimulus. What that means is different for everyone, and a 300/400/500 bench/squat/deadlift may not be in your future (or maybe it is!), but I'd say that at the very least you need you be able to hit a quality set of 5 with 225/275/325.

This is why you're weak:

I progressively overload when I can and deload around every 6 weeks. No momentum, v slow eccentrics on all exercises.

Number one, at your current level of strength, you should be able to add weight nearly every session to the compound exercises and you should run a program that encourages doing so. It's much maligned around here but you could do much worse than just running Starting Strength - not forever like the cult members, but until you well and truly stall. Then move on to any of the other programs referenced here. There are a number of things about the SS novice linear progression that I'd change, but I'm not even gonna get into that. We're talking max 3 months of your training life. It doesn't matter. Progressively overloading "when you can" ain't gonna cut it, nor is doing so using volume (i.e. adding sets) at this level of strength. That comes later.

Number two, at your current level of strength, there is zero reason to be deloading. That too is for later (if ever, should you later pursue hypertrophy over strength).

Number three, please cut the shit with the "no momentum, very slow eccentrics." It's nearly impossible to get stronger doing that. That shit - if it's for anyone - is for bodybuilders who are already very strong and on drugs. You need to reasonably control the eccentric and that's it.

Bonus, although you didn't ask: I checked out your youtube channel and strongly suggest reworking your squat form. You're initiating the squat entirely with your hips, sitting back. That's for geared powerlifters and is gonna result in a lack of quadriceps growth and, eventually, a fucked up lower back. Google "squat school Jackie Perez" for what you should be doing. (Pouring one out for the Max era of Juggernaut. R@Jamessmithson

That all makes perfect sense, thank you! All the replies and yours seem to point to my strength being the issue and higher reps.
That squat is interesting - I suspected my quads are lacking but Mark Rippetoe said yesterday I'm driving with my chest too much and not enough with my hips. https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... check.html
Do you mean I need to bend my knees forward more?

[Jamessmithson]

I spent 200 quid on beginner programs from John Meadows and Jeff Nippard. Why do they say do 8/10 reps on the big compounds and higher on the isolation lifts? All the online youtubers say 8-12 reps are great for beginners to pack on muscle. Can my issues really be as simple as doing 8/10 reps instead of 5??

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@Jamessmithson Here's a few remarks that crossed my mind:
- Like @aurelius said you probably need to gain weight. If I were you I'd give myself a 1-2 year period of gaining about 1kg per month, and reassess the situation. I think the target weight he mentioned (about 90 kgs if you are 5'11) is pretty good as a long term objective (I'm around this ballpark and I do look like I lift).
- Looking at your program I'd guess that you don't know how to program for yourself yet (no offense). If I were you I'd pick up a program written by a reputable coach, and run it. Just run the program to the letter without changing anything, and try to get stronger on your compound exercises every week, which you should be able to do if you're eating and sleeping. Here are some templates that could be good (if you cant decide, cast a dice, and that's your program):

* one of the Barbell Medicine templates
* the Stronger by Science Reps to Failure program
* 5/3/1 Building the Monolith
* Super Squats

- You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) and probably spend too much time on the internet. Stop counting leucine, stop worrying about slow eccentrics stop trying to evaluate your MRV stop worrying about the size of your forearms or or any of that stuff. Cook good food and eat it, get stronger every week in the gym and if the number on the scale does not go up then cook more good food. Especially if you have trouble putting on weight, you want food to be tasty so that eating is not a chore.

- In general, if you care mostly about muscle size. I wouldn't worry about strength standards (like "you must S/B/D those numbers and then you'll look jacked") because they're not helpful. Say you hit those numbers but you still look small or you are already look big but can't hit them. What happens next ? Now I'd worry about getting stronger than you currently are, which is a different thing than meeting a standard. If you're at this level, the weight you can do for 5 or 10 reps on your big compound movements should increase every week (on average, sure you'll have some ups and downs).

I followed strength programs from reputable coaches for years (doing 8-12 reps instead of 5) for years and didn't see progress. The program I made is highly inspired by John Meadows' programs. And I spent a long time learning how to program etc - I'm probably still doing it wrong though!

' You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) '
A lot of that was for health, and meat isn't cheap or easy to cook so I weigh it. Also so I know my calories to bulk and cut.


As for 90kg, I'm 70kg now with body fat. Is it possible I have a lighter body structure? 90kg seems like a lot, even if I put on lots of muscle!

I'm not familiar with programs by either John Meadows or Jeff Nippard but if they look anything similar to the program you've posted above then they're probably not very good. Did you get a chance to check out any of the programs that were recommended by either me or the other posters ? Most of them can be accessed with a google search. What did you think of them ? Also, if you're doing only 8-12 reps and nothing else then that's not a strength program. Most reasonable strength programs will give you a variety of rep ranges, some 3's, some 5's, some 8's, some 10's etc.

When I was talking about your nutrition I was just saying that (to me) eating the way you eat does not sound enjoyable. At all. I mean 300g of oats is a monstruous portion of the blandest food in existence. But if you enjoy eating that way then keep going, no problem. I was just under the impression that you chose to eat this way because you read on the internet that this is necessary in order to become bigger and stronger. If you're 70kgs and trying to bulk, most meals should put a smile on your face, instead of looking like you hired Rich Piana as a chef. I'm not insulting your food, I'm just telling you you are allowed to eat tasty food.

I'm not sure about body structure. If you weight 150 lbs your skeleton weights on average 20 lbs. A huge/tiny skeleton cannot explain a large difference in body weight. Just train hard for 10 years and I'm sure you'll put on more muscle that you thought imaginable. I believe in you.

[Jamessmithson]

@Jamessmithson Here's a few remarks that crossed my mind:
- Like @aurelius said you probably need to gain weight. If I were you I'd give myself a 1-2 year period of gaining about 1kg per month, and reassess the situation. I think the target weight he mentioned (about 90 kgs if you are 5'11) is pretty good as a long term objective (I'm around this ballpark and I do look like I lift).
- Looking at your program I'd guess that you don't know how to program for yourself yet (no offense). If I were you I'd pick up a program written by a reputable coach, and run it. Just run the program to the letter without changing anything, and try to get stronger on your compound exercises every week, which you should be able to do if you're eating and sleeping. Here are some templates that could be good (if you cant decide, cast a dice, and that's your program):

* one of the Barbell Medicine templates
* the Stronger by Science Reps to Failure program
* 5/3/1 Building the Monolith
* Super Squats

- You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) and probably spend too much time on the internet. Stop counting leucine, stop worrying about slow eccentrics stop trying to evaluate your MRV stop worrying about the size of your forearms or or any of that stuff. Cook good food and eat it, get stronger every week in the gym and if the number on the scale does not go up then cook more good food. Especially if you have trouble putting on weight, you want food to be tasty so that eating is not a chore.

- In general, if you care mostly about muscle size. I wouldn't worry about strength standards (like "you must S/B/D those numbers and then you'll look jacked") because they're not helpful. Say you hit those numbers but you still look small or you are already look big but can't hit them. What happens next ? Now I'd worry about getting stronger than you currently are, which is a different thing than meeting a standard. If you're at this level, the weight you can do for 5 or 10 reps on your big compound movements should increase every week (on average, sure you'll have some ups and downs).

I followed strength programs from reputable coaches for years (doing 8-12 reps instead of 5) for years and didn't see progress. The program I made is highly inspired by John Meadows' programs. And I spent a long time learning how to program etc - I'm probably still doing it wrong though!

' You seem to be very analytical, detail oriented (oats and ground beef ? salmon before bed ? 750g of cruciferous vegetables ?) '
A lot of that was for health, and meat isn't cheap or easy to cook so I weigh it. Also so I know my calories to bulk and cut.


As for 90kg, I'm 70kg now with body fat. Is it possible I have a lighter body structure? 90kg seems like a lot, even if I put on lots of muscle!

I'm not familiar with programs by either John Meadows or Jeff Nippard but if they look anything similar to the program you've posted above then they're probably not very good. Did you get a chance to check out any of the programs that were recommended by either me or the other posters ? Most of them can be accessed with a google search. What did you think of them ? Also, if you're doing only 8-12 reps and nothing else then that's not a strength program. Most reasonable strength programs will give you a variety of rep ranges, some 3's, some 5's, some 8's, some 10's etc.

When I was talking about your nutrition I was just saying that (to me) eating the way you eat does not sound enjoyable. At all. I mean 300g of oats is a monstruous portion of the blandest food in existence. But if you enjoy eating that way then keep going, no problem. I was just under the impression that you chose to eat this way because you read on the internet that this is necessary in order to become bigger and stronger. If you're 70kgs and trying to bulk, most meals should put a smile on your face, instead of looking like you hired Rich Piana as a chef. I'm not insulting your food, I'm just telling you you are allowed to eat tasty food.

I'm not sure about body structure. If you weight 150 lbs your skeleton weights on average 20 lbs. A huge/tiny skeleton cannot explain a large difference in body weight. Just train hard for 10 years and I'm sure you'll put on more muscle that you thought imaginable. I believe in you.

I did check them out actually, they look good and simple to follow. It'll save me a lot of time, I'll give them another shot (I did Greyskull LP for a year when I was 17).
The beginner programs by Meadows and Nippard are similar to those posted but doing higher reps and more isolation work, and slightly more volume. Nothing like the high volume program I posted though!
Ahahaha yes, my friends often comment about the food.

[DanCR]

I find it tough to do 5 reps, and am scared I'll hurt myself.

You won't.

https://drive.proton.me/urls/C1KZN2VK5C#Pp1eqRLyANuW
pics of my progress. I'm already quite high body fat at 70kg. 90kg seems impossible!

You're not even a little bit fat.

Vids of me training. I certainly don't think I can do more reps with decent form- and am hitting 6 reps on the squats. Maybe the pauses, deep stretch, slow reps, and high bar squats are why the numbers are low?

I can't seem to view the videos but there is absolutely nothing wrong with high bar squats (or even doing low bar squats with high bar form, as I do). However, yes, there is no reason for you to be pausing or doing intentionally slow reps and those things are not conducive to driving strength.

That all makes perfect sense, thank you! All the replies and yours seem to point to my strength being the issue and higher reps. That squat is interesting - I suspected my quads are lacking but Mark Rippetoe said yesterday I'm driving with my chest too much and not enough with my hips. https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... check.html
Do you mean I need to bend my knees forward more?

I don't recommend listening to anything that Mark Rippetoe has to say regarding squatting. He's not wrong about everything but you have to dig the good advice out of a bucket of shit. Better to just pay no attention at all when there are better sources without the baggage. The guy further on in the thread saying that you're barely hitting depth is an idiot. Your depth is fine. This is the video that I suggested googling:

Thank you! Isn't hypertrophy still suitable for beginners?

Can you drive strength with higher reps? Sure, but it's much harder and takes much longer. If you insist on doing it, I'd take Stan Efferding's approach and add weight when you can get one good set of 10 reps. (That doesn't mean only do one set. It just means use that one set as your barometer for adding weight.) Here is his article addressing that, which has been posted in these forums many times because it's great:

https://npcnewsonline.com/powerbuilding ... gym/63930/

Trying to progress something like 3x12 or whatever for any extended period is nearly impossible.

[rjharris]

i don't have the strength credentials others do, but i know body dysmorphic adjacent shit when i see it, and my dude, i have no idea whether getting to 90kg is reasonable, but you are not "quite high in body fat" at 70 kg lmfao.

if i were you, i would just pick a basic free strength program, add on some sets of isolation work for stuff that doesn't get hit that well by a lot of it (bis, hamstrings, calves, rear delt, maybe otherS), take that isolation work to the house (like go to failure) and slowly gain some weight. simple, probably you can be in and out of the gym quick, it gets you strength and a hypertrophy stimulus, it's great.

[Jamessmithson]

I find it tough to do 5 reps, and am scared I'll hurt myself.

You won't.

https://drive.proton.me/urls/C1KZN2VK5C#Pp1eqRLyANuW
pics of my progress. I'm already quite high body fat at 70kg. 90kg seems impossible!

You're not even a little bit fat.

Vids of me training. I certainly don't think I can do more reps with decent form- and am hitting 6 reps on the squats. Maybe the pauses, deep stretch, slow reps, and high bar squats are why the numbers are low?

I can't seem to view the videos but there is absolutely nothing wrong with high bar squats (or even doing low bar squats with high bar form, as I do). However, yes, there is no reason for you to be pausing or doing intentionally slow reps and those things are not conducive to driving strength.

That all makes perfect sense, thank you! All the replies and yours seem to point to my strength being the issue and higher reps. That squat is interesting - I suspected my quads are lacking but Mark Rippetoe said yesterday I'm driving with my chest too much and not enough with my hips. https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... check.html
Do you mean I need to bend my knees forward more?

I don't recommend listening to anything that Mark Rippetoe has to say regarding squatting. He's not wrong about everything but you have to dig the good advice out of a bucket of shit. Better to just pay no attention at all when there are better sources without the baggage. The guy further on in the thread saying that you're barely hitting depth is an idiot. Your depth is fine. This is the video that I suggested googling:

Thank you! Isn't hypertrophy still suitable for beginners?

Can you drive strength with higher reps? Sure, but it's much harder and takes much longer. If you insist on doing it, I'd take Stan Efferding's approach and add weight when you can get one good set of 10 reps. (That doesn't mean only do one set. It just means use that one set as your barometer for adding weight.) Here is his article addressing that, which has been posted in these forums many times because it's great:

https://npcnewsonline.com/powerbuilding ... gym/63930/

Trying to progress something like 3x12 or whatever for any extended period is nearly impossible.

Thanks so much, I genuinely really appreciate that! Yes, those comments about my squat had me worried, but I've heard Rippetoe is dead set on a low bar squat. That makes sense, I'll start doing low reps. I'm assuming all the comments about high reps (hypertrophy) not being effective and pause stretch movements mean that they are ineffective for strength (seemingly the purpose of this forum), rather than ineffective for muscle size.

[mgil]

Most of the strength oriented guys will tell you the 4-6 rep range is pretty good for beginners as it allows for frequent progression, useful stress, and trainee motivation. The side effects of running a progression scheme using these rep ranges, for young/small trainees, is hypertrophy. Eventually these gains peter out and you have to focus on certain aspects of the process, whether that be display of skill/strength or muscle protein synthesis.

You’re not at that stage, OP.

Pick a reasonable program in the 4-6 rep range, and run it with the intent of progressive overload (in other words, start lighter than you might want to - maybe start where your sets of 10 are now and add weight every session for several weeks) and try to do this smartly for approximately 12 weeks. Then you’ll probably want to do a reasonable DUP style setup which has you progressing small sets (1 - 3 reps), “strength” sets (4 to 6), and then hypertrophy sets (8 - 12) at some reasonable pace.

A rule of thumb: for most people at your stage, 2 to 3 major compound lifts with 2 to 3 accessories is more than enough to make a session.

[mgil]

i don't have the strength credentials others do, but i know body dysmorphic adjacent shit when i see it, and my dude, i have no idea whether getting to 90kg is reasonable, but you are not "quite high in body fat" at 70 kg lmfao.

I completely agree.

[Jamessmithson]

Most of the strength oriented guys will tell you the 4-6 rep range is pretty good for beginners as it allows for frequent progression, useful stress, and trainee motivation. The side effects of running a progression scheme using these rep ranges, for young/small trainees, is hypertrophy. Eventually these gains peter out and you have to focus on certain aspects of the process, whether that be display of skill/strength or muscle protein synthesis.

You’re not at that stage, OP.

Pick a reasonable program in the 4-6 rep range, and run it with the intent of progressive overload (in other words, start lighter than you might want to - maybe start where your sets of 10 are now and add weight every session for several weeks) and try to do this smartly for approximately 12 weeks. Then you’ll probably want to do a reasonable DUP style setup which has you progressing small sets (1 - 3 reps), “strength” sets (4 to 6), and then hypertrophy sets (8 - 12) at some reasonable pace.

A rule of thumb: for most people at your stage, 2 to 3 major compound lifts with 2 to 3 accessories is more than enough to make a session.

Makes ideal sense, thank you! So apart from motivation, technique (tension) and ensuring progressive overload and progress without excessive fatigue (hard to measure with 8-12 reps) in beginners, 4-6 reps is not superior to 8-12 for muscle size in beginners?