Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

[mbasic]

there's a funny WL meme-IG humor post (can't find it for the life of me),

with a guy in his bikini briefs pulled up/bunched up into his ass crack like a thong,

he's looking over his shoulder and saying, "hey, don't make a big deal out of my legless weightlifting singlet" or something

[damufunman]

Interesting "high bar vs low bar" conversation with Glenn Pendlay, also with some background on Pharoah's behaviour wrt Lon Kilgore and Glenn. Also say Practical Programming is an excellent book...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/weightlif ... 774978&utm_

I'd have to say I'm leaning more towards Seb's view of (which is similar to BBM's view, I believe, though theirs might be in a different context of general strength training) "it doesn't really matter." Just squat to get strong.

[asdf]

Interesting "high bar vs low bar" conversation with Glenn Pendlay, also with some background on Pharoah's behaviour wrt Lon Kilgore and Glenn. Also say Practical Programming is an excellent book...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/weightlif ... 774978&utm_

I'd have to say I'm leaning more towards Seb's view of (which is similar to BBM's view, I believe, though theirs might be in a different context of general strength training) "it doesn't really matter." Just squat to get strong.

Thanks for providing that link. The audio was terrible, but Pendlay was surprisingly ecumenical.

[MPhelps]

It's pretty telling that bottom line, Glenn hates Rip because he's a dick, and that colors his opinion of the low bar squat. The fact that he took Kilgore and Glenn out with lawsuits and rewrote the book so that he could keep the royalties is just another piece of the puzzle. I wonder how good the first edition of Practical Programming is. I keep hearing how great a book it is from people outside the walls and I wonder if they're actually referring to the first edition. Because the current one is a hot garbage dumpster fire.

I used to listen to this podcast every week, but I stopped because Glenn repeats himself over and over again, and he capitulates back and forth on ideas. That and they always end up on you've got to be strong. Got it. Also the podcast format is just so long and drawn out. Ain't nobody got time for that. Car rides are for music.

[KyleSchuant]

Remember that WFAC is just a small gym, for its non-Crossfit history it almost never had more than 100 members, and most of them don't get day-to-day coaching, they just do their own thing. These numbers mean that on a Tuesday night maybe nobody comes in. You're sitting there in the quiet gym going through the business numbers in your mind wondering if you can pay the utilities bill next month. The place is dusty and some of the barbells are rusting but you can't bring yourself to clean up. Your hear movement and look up - oh, it's just the other guy rearranging some weight plates, looking bored.

So you have two strong-willed opinionated but worried coaches in a small space with not enough lifters to keep them busy. This can lead to great creativity, or a lot of bitchslapping. Or maybe both. And long after the failing business was abandoned, or made successful in some other way, some of that bitter nastiness might remain.

[mbasic]

Interesting "high bar vs low bar" conversation with Glenn Pendlay, also with some background on Pharoah's behaviour wrt Lon Kilgore and Glenn. Also say Practical Programming is an excellent book...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/weightlif ... 774978&utm_

I'd have to say I'm leaning more towards Seb's view of (which is similar to BBM's view, I believe, though theirs might be in a different context of general strength training) "it doesn't really matter." Just squat to get strong.

I would the the BBM view would be just squat to get "hypertrophied", and then practice your sport: lot of "heavy singles" with SN & CJ.

Seb (and even Pendlay) doesn't understand the SS model:
- Put bar on back so its doing a reverse-kamura to your elbows.
- Look at (your own) mon pubis
- Lean over and push butt back to load hamstrings
- To get the hammy-bounce out of a powerlifting-depth squat
- With the most weight at all costs.

...maybe there was more discussion, but it seemed like most of the talk was where the bar is placed on the back.
I don't believe Rip has said to break the hips first (recently).

Some people I don't think it matters.
..people like damnufunman and Wolf (when he could squat) . . . it doesn't matter.
Their BACK squat form isn't going to look to different one way or the other for various reasons.

Other people its really important.

Elite Olympic Weightlifter?
Training 8-10 times per week (am & pm some days).
Back squatting probably 5-6 times per week, that's got to be great on your elbows (also front squatting and catching cleans i.e. elbows).
Powerlifters don't even like to LOW bar squat all the time. Bitch about the shoulders, elbows, and low back.

Recreational Olympic Weightlifter?
Maybe only 3-4 training sessions per week.
I would HBBS because of the specificity, pounds your knees, hips, and ankles into a solid bottom position.
Postural considerations, etc.
You only have a limited amount of time and resources.

[MPhelps]

https://coffeesgym.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... -exercise/

This along with Greg Everett's description in his book is all of the reason I need to keep high barring. Low bars would be ok if you don't become posterior chain dependant like I do. It got so bad that I couldn't do a 'third world squat' at all. Not good if you're trying to get yourself under a snatch.

Pendlay likes a lot of heavy good mornings in his programs which hits the posterior chain hard, also making it hard for me to hit low positions. I've never seen videos of Glenn actually lifting, but my guess is he used him mosterous strength to offset less than stellar technique. He also spent a lot of time with Jon North judging from the old cal strength videos.

[damufunman]

@mbasic last Summer/Fall I was low bar squatting (and deadlifting) and didn't see any issues with getting into position, but my back was feeling a bit beat up. Also, it seemed I'm very hip-y in my second pull, trying to get better leg drive so giving high bar a go at the moment. Also elbows were cranking this past Spring from low barring.

[DirtyRed]

Interesting "high bar vs low bar" conversation with Glenn Pendlay, also with some background on Pharoah's behaviour wrt Lon Kilgore and Glenn. Also say Practical Programming is an excellent book...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/weightlif ... 774978&utm_

I'd have to say I'm leaning more towards Seb's view of (which is similar to BBM's view, I believe, though theirs might be in a different context of general strength training) "it doesn't really matter." Just squat to get strong.

I would the the BBM view would be just squat to get "hypertrophied", and then practice your sport: lot of "heavy singles" with SN & CJ.

You know, for the purposes of actually competing at the snatch and clean&jerk, Hanley's "Deadlift and Front Squat Only" schtick might actually be ideal. For once. Deadlifts (and snatch grip deadlifts) are going to train the strength involved in pulling barbells off the ground better than squats will, and fronts squats are going to train the front squat recovery from clean and jerks better than back squats would. The only reason to back squat would possibly be to further train the front squat, without wearing on your knees as hard, which might not be necessary anyway. And for which you should use a low bar squat.

The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.

[Murelli]

Interesting "high bar vs low bar" conversation with Glenn Pendlay, also with some background on Pharoah's behaviour wrt Lon Kilgore and Glenn. Also say Practical Programming is an excellent book...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/weightlif ... 774978&utm_

I'd have to say I'm leaning more towards Seb's view of (which is similar to BBM's view, I believe, though theirs might be in a different context of general strength training) "it doesn't really matter." Just squat to get strong.

I would the the BBM view would be just squat to get "hypertrophied", and then practice your sport: lot of "heavy singles" with SN & CJ.

You know, for the purposes of actually competing at the snatch and clean&jerk, Hanley's "Deadlift and Front Squat Only" schtick might actually be ideal. For once. Deadlifts (and snatch grip deadlifts) are going to train the strength involved in pulling barbells off the ground better than squats will, and fronts squats are going to train the front squat recovery from clean and jerks better than back squats would. The only reason to back squat would possibly be to further train the front squat, without wearing on your knees as hard, which might not be necessary anyway. And for which you should use a low bar squat.

The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.

Your view is too narrow. Low bar squats, for most people, unnecessarily tax the lower back, spending "lower back fatigue credits" on a completely non sport specific movement when they could be better spent on pulls (strength or competition pulls). I believe Juanita Jenli would agree (since we have already wrote about this in this exodus forum).

[mbasic]

[cwd]

The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.

My skeleton has just enough range of motion to low-bar squat with perfect form, but even small form errors leave me hurting. Maybe 1 in 5 LB squat sessions hurt my wrists, elbows or shoulders, more if I go over RPE 8.

High bar squats never hurt my upper body. My posterior chain is keeping up -- my deadlift is 125% of my squat.

Why should I ever low-bar squat, other than for purposes of powerlifting competitions, which I don't do?

[asdf]

The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.

High-bar back squats allow you to use the exact same stance as your front squats, which if you're a weightlifter is the same as your clean and snatch catch. The advantage is that you can use a lot more weight. The mechanics (torso angle, hip and knee movement) can be very similar to front squats (clean recovery) and hence much more sport-specific. High-bar places zero stress on your shoulders and elbows.

But yeah, other than all that, zero reason to ever high bar.

[Skander]

I actually really really really prefer low bar. It just works with my body better. I also find resources and coaching for high bar to generally suck- my high bar is just never comfortable in the way low bar is, and everyone is just like "just go down and up it's easy". And if I was really really consistent on doing front squats, it wouldn't matter, but I never am and since I know myself, and due to Olympic lifting peer pressure, I do high bar. But I just don't like it.

[damufunman]

I actually really really really prefer low bar. It just works with my body better. I also find resources and coaching for high bar to generally suck- my high bar is just never comfortable in the way low bar is, and everyone is just like "just go down and up it's easy". And if I was really really consistent on doing front squats, it wouldn't matter, but I never am and since I know myself, and due to Olympic lifting peer pressure, I do high bar. But I just don't like it.

+1 to all this

[asdf]

I actually really really really prefer low bar. It just works with my body better. I also find resources and coaching for high bar to generally suck- my high bar is just never comfortable in the way low bar is, and everyone is just like "just go down and up it's easy". And if I was really really consistent on doing front squats, it wouldn't matter, but I never am and since I know myself, and due to Olympic lifting peer pressure, I do high bar. But I just don't like it.

If you like low bar and it doesn't interfere with your clean and snatch mechanics, do it!

[Testiclaw]

Interesting "high bar vs low bar" conversation with Glenn Pendlay, also with some background on Pharoah's behaviour wrt Lon Kilgore and Glenn. Also say Practical Programming is an excellent book...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/weightlif ... 774978&utm_

I'd have to say I'm leaning more towards Seb's view of (which is similar to BBM's view, I believe, though theirs might be in a different context of general strength training) "it doesn't really matter." Just squat to get strong.

I would the the BBM view would be just squat to get "hypertrophied", and then practice your sport: lot of "heavy singles" with SN & CJ.

You know, for the purposes of actually competing at the snatch and clean&jerk, Hanley's "Deadlift and Front Squat Only" schtick might actually be ideal. For once. Deadlifts (and snatch grip deadlifts) are going to train the strength involved in pulling barbells off the ground better than squats will, and fronts squats are going to train the front squat recovery from clean and jerks better than back squats would. The only reason to back squat would possibly be to further train the front squat, without wearing on your knees as hard, which might not be necessary anyway. And for which you should use a low bar squat.

The point is, there is still exactly zero reason to ever high bar squat, ever, beyond one's own incompetence rendering them unable to do so.

I would love to know the weightlifters you've trained, I'm genuinely curious. I've gone back and forth with what weightlifters are "supposed to do" and what they can do that works.

[Skander]

I actually really really really prefer low bar. It just works with my body better. I also find resources and coaching for high bar to generally suck- my high bar is just never comfortable in the way low bar is, and everyone is just like "just go down and up it's easy". And if I was really really consistent on doing front squats, it wouldn't matter, but I never am and since I know myself, and due to Olympic lifting peer pressure, I do high bar. But I just don't like it.

If you like low bar and it doesn't interfere with your clean and snatch mechanics, do it!

I've had periods when I did, but it does interfere a bit - there's something about the balance in the Olympic lifts that gets thrown off. Anyway my training life is complicated these days.

[KyleSchuant]

I would love to know the weightlifters you've trained, I'm genuinely curious. I've gone back and forth with what weightlifters are "supposed to do" and what they can do that works.

I suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here. I went to the rankings page to check, but those lifts aren't listed. Anyway, point is, he has probably figured some things out along the way.

[Testiclaw]

I would love to know the weightlifters you've trained, I'm genuinely curious. I've gone back and forth with what weightlifters are "supposed to do" and what they can do that works.

I suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here. I went to the rankings page to check, but those lifts aren't listed. Anyway, point is, he has probably figured some things out along the way.

Well, sure, of course. Your own development is key when it comes to figuring things out.

But if you have a collection of weightlifters who are all fairly competitive and all sharp lifters, that's when you really have an understanding of things.

Don't tell me you've never been able to make the distinction between the two scenarios.