Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

[Testiclaw]

Or, I guess in simpler terms;

No weightlifter needs to high bar squat =/= I don't need to high bar squat.

[KyleSchuant]

Sure. But N=1 is greater than N=0, and the latter is what most people are working off when arguing this.

I was an N=1 in my 20s. I'd never heard of the low-bar back squat. Everyone just did high bar or front squat. But I was mediocre, and was not a careful observer then.

I believe that DR is correct in saying that weightlifting is like nobility: mostly you're born to it and brought up in it. You're naturally explosive and taught from a young age, 12yo or so. It's like the vertical jump everyone likes to test: if you have to test yours, you're probably not very good. The naturally explosive person knows it - they were the kid who dominated every sport they tried in school.

Put another way, if you squat 180kg and clean 60kg, you might be one arguing about high vs low bar. If you squat 180 and clean 110, you're not here having this conversation with us, you're busy training in a weightlifting club somewhere. And if you squat 180 and clean 140, not only are you not here for this conversation, you're not even aware of the existence of the low-bar squat. "Well, we just squat," you say with a shrug. Takano, who knows more than any of us, talks about numbers a bit here.

Genuinely explosive and strong people don't have this argument. I don't claim to know which is best, but I do note that there are fashions in weightlifting, for example for years everyone did split jerk and said squat jerks couldn't work, now the Chinese have some lifters do them and it's spreading. It may be that some people are better suited for one variation of a lift and some for another. We've yet to see the fashion for low-bar among weightlifters, but perhaps it'll happen one day.

It's just not an issue for most of us, or anyone we're likely to train. Even if some are strong, few of us are strong and explosive enough to have any kind of prospect of being nationally competitive, let alone internationally. So exactly how we squat or whether we split or squat snatch or whatever just doesn't matter. We're doing it for fun.

[Testiclaw]

Okay. Disregard, DR, I'm no longer curious.

[mgil]

Okay. Disregard, DR, I'm no longer curious.

Bludgeoned into apathy.

#killedbykyleskeyboard

[asdf]

Okay. Disregard, DR, I'm no longer curious.

Bludgeoned into apathy.

#killedbykyleskeyboard

Yeah, right? Is there an ignore feature on this forum? If not, can we get one? Please.

[mbasic]

I dont know if it's a contraversy perse....but I AM thoroughly enjoying the destruction of Ma Strength by the Chinese National team members on social media. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

[asdf]

I dont know if it's a contraversy perse....but I AM thoroughly enjoying the destruction of Ma Strength by the Chinese National team members on social media. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Link or brief explanation, please.

I don't know anything about Ma Strength as an organization, but Ma himself once spent nearly an hour helping me with my lifts. No charge. I just happened to be visiting a gym where he was coaching. I think he arrived early before his team practice. Super nice, generous guy. This was like a decade ago.

[Testiclaw]

Okay. Disregard, DR, I'm no longer curious.

Bludgeoned into apathy.

#killedbykyleskeyboard

I'm not quite sure when I "changed"...I used to argue on forums until I was blue in the face.

I was a competitive, sponsored PL, trained alongside lifters who held WR's or went on to be WR holders, Westsiders, etc.

But after spending so much time prepping and programming and coaching athletes in other competitive endeavors I've come to realize I just don't have it in me anymore.

There has to either be a baseline of understanding in the sport I coach, or, evidence/experience/data that's compelling enough to get me curious.

If it's just, "this guy is strong", or, "I'm a powerlifter but here's what I think about programming for weightlifters", man, jog on, I'm just not interested.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[PatrickDB]

I dont know if it's a contraversy perse....but I AM thoroughly enjoying the destruction of Ma Strength by the Chinese National team members on social media. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Link or brief explanation, please.

I don't know anything about Ma Strength as an organization, but Ma himself once spent nearly an hour helping me with my lifts. No charge. I just happened to be visiting a gym where he was coaching. I think he arrived early before his team practice. Super nice, generous guy. This was like a decade ago.

Maybe this?

[mgil]

Okay. Disregard, DR, I'm no longer curious.

Bludgeoned into apathy.

#killedbykyleskeyboard

I'm not quite sure when I "changed"...I used to argue on forums until I was blue in the face.

I was a competitive, sponsored PL, trained alongside lifters who held WR's or went on to be WR holders, Westsiders, etc.

But after spending so much time prepping and programming and coaching athletes in other competitive endeavors I've come to realize I just don't have it in me anymore.

There has to either be a baseline of understanding in the sport I coach, or, evidence/experience/data that's compelling enough to get me curious.

If it's just, "this guy is strong", or, "I'm a powerlifter but here's what I think about programming for weightlifters", man, jog on, I'm just not interested.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah. The meme of this is Rip’s ramblings about USAW being crap because he’s not affiliated and they aren’t prioritizing strength.

Even when it comes to a powerlifter talking about powerlifting, I still filter the information.

That being said, I’m in O-Town with nothing to do. I should go find Mattie and ask her questions about DR’s technique.

[mbasic]

I dont know if it's a contraversy perse....but I AM thoroughly enjoying the destruction of Ma Strength by the Chinese National team members on social media. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Link or brief explanation, please.

I don't know anything about Ma Strength as an organization, but Ma himself once spent nearly an hour helping me with my lifts. No charge. I just happened to be visiting a gym where he was coaching. I think he arrived early before his team practice. Super nice, generous guy. This was like a decade ago.

Pretty much what Pat said.

He's been sorta co-opt videos of the better lifters...kinda gives the illusion he's a coach in their circle.

Even DengWi came out and told Ma to "stop it".

Kinda fucked over the Hook grip guy too a when back.

Ask Nat Artem, he got conned by them a few years ago:

A lot of the information Ma gives out/posts about is super obvious, or like a circular logic thing.

[MPhelps]

I read a bunch of those Reddit threads about Ma the other night, so much drama in the snatchcleanjerk world. Ma seems too transparent that it's business first. Kind of like the Chinese Travis Mash without the over-emphasis on sincerity that it's about anything but money. Ma's book apparently is full of grammar errors and typos which is unacceptable for $60. At least it's one book. Mash puts out a new throw away ebook a month for $30. Open up and it says squat more and snatchcleanjerk with whatever technique you can gym PR on Instagram with.

[Testiclaw]

The Ma book was borderline useless.

[mbasic]

that reddit thread I linked didn't work right:

here:

HOOKGRIP GUY:
The trip was advertised as the national training center and we ended up at a sports university. Without getting into all of the details, people (including me) thought it was going to be a very different experience than we ended up getting.
------------------------------------------------
correct. not to get too far into something which is now water under the bridge, here are the facts:

i was told it was the national training center and that it was the place where lu/liao train. and that i would be able to take pictures and videos during the camp. i have this in writing.

i was never told it would not be the national training center.

we got there and it was not the national training center.

i complained about it multiple times and requested access to the NTC to take pictures and videos. i was told it was not possible and that the center we were at counted as the NTC because national team lifters had trained there at one point in their careers. for instance, the 94 who won the asian games used to train at this center. that argument is obviously ridiculous but that was their stance.

this facebook exchange (http://i.imgur.com/Yngby0j.png) happened on a thread with a video of Liao's 200kg CJ at their summer test comp. i got kicked off the trip for that and spent the last 5ish days on my own in beijing.

no apologies, explanations or anything.

this isn't something i can be sure of but i was also told by gym owners at seminar locations that they banned me (and something like 20 other people) from attending their lu/liao seminars back in december -- which is hilarious to think that i would attend. whether that ban part is true or not, i don't know.

suffice to say, I won't do business with ma strength anymore. i haven't posted about it on hookgrip because there's no reason to give them attention of any kind, even negative.
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It's because I am choosing the thing that I feel is worse for them.

And frankly, the worst thing was that they made me look really stupid in front of a lot of hookgrip followers. Of the 30 people in the camp, I spoke to over 20 about how they signed up for the camp and every single one of them said it was because they saw it on hookgrip and I said it was a once-in-a-lifetime experience to see the NTC from the inside. That is really embarrassing to be involved in that sort of bait-and-switch. Thankfully I had emails to show people to explain my side and I think the campers do not blame me which was definitely my primary concern. They averaged about $3500-4000 in spend per person including plane tickets so my one set of expenses was definitely dwarfed by theirs.

[SeanHerbison]

I suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here. I went to the rankings page to check, but those lifts aren't listed.

We should. Paging, umm... @unruhschuh? In terms of absolute load, I'm pretty sure either myself or @ape288 have the highest O lifts, though I don't know everyone on the forum, so I could easily be wrong. @Testiclaw, you mentioned you were even sponsored. What are/were your lifts?

The naturally explosive person knows it - they were the kid who dominated every sport they tried in school.

I feel like it's a common assumption that explosive=coordinated, and I'm not sure why. In sports where size/speed/explosiveness were prominent, say... throwing heavy objects, I was awesome compared to my peers. In anything that required skill, like shooting a basket or passing in soccer, I was nowhere near the top.

And if you squat 180 and clean 140, not only are you not here for this conversation, you're not even aware of the existence of the low-bar squat. "Well, we just squat," you say with a shrug.
...
Genuinely explosive and strong people don't have this argument.

I hadn't done any Olympic lifting in over a year, and I still managed a 225 lb snatch and 315 power clean recently, so if I can count myself in that group, yes, some of us do have this argument. And my basic position, which I would love to have challenged and refined, is that if you're not strong enough for your current weight, I'd bias toward low bar squat. But if your bigger issue is having trouble with your catch/recovery position, I'd probably bias toward high bar and lots of front squats.

Though personally, I'm with Skander, in that I really don't like squatting high-bar.

[Murelli]

I feel like it's a common assumption that explosive=coordinated, and I'm not sure why. In sports where size/speed/explosiveness were prominent, say... throwing heavy objects, I was awesome compared to my peers. In anything that required skill, like shooting a basket or passing in soccer, I was nowhere near the top.

I'm here wondering if @Hanley could be your father, because I've already read something like this^^^ from him (explosive spazz).

And if you squat 180 and clean 140, not only are you not here for this conversation, you're not even aware of the existence of the low-bar squat. "Well, we just squat," you say with a shrug.
...
Genuinely explosive and strong people don't have this argument.

I hadn't done any Olympic lifting in over a year, and I still managed a 225 lb snatch and 315 power clean recently, so if I can count myself in that group, yes, some of us do have this argument. And my basic position, which I would love to have challenged and refined, is that if you're not strong enough for your current weight, I'd bias toward low bar squat. But if your bigger issue is having trouble with your catch/recovery position, I'd probably bias toward high bar and lots of front squats.

Though personally, I'm with Skander, in that I really don't like squatting high-bar.

Since nobody discussed what I've wrote - what about those lower back fatigue credits? I'm speaking as someone who gets a lot of lower back fatigue from low bar and not nearly so much from high bar. I also hate high bar but it really does get better after you get used to the bar mashing down your traps.

[SeanHerbison]

Since nobody discussed what I've wrote - what about those lower back fatigue credits? I'm speaking as someone who gets a lot of lower back fatigue from low bar and not nearly so much from high bar.

I think it's a valid concept, but I don't personally experience a significant difference in my lower back between high bar and low bar, so I can't comment from first-hand experience.

[Hanley]

(explosive spazz)

It's a cruel fate.

[cue video of me as a 16 year-old, running full tilt INTO the motherfucking goalpost].

Bent my facemask.

[Testiclaw]

I suspect DR snatches and jerks more than almost anyone here. I went to the rankings page to check, but those lifts aren't listed.

We should. Paging, umm... @unruhschuh? In terms of absolute load, I'm pretty sure either myself or @ape288 have the highest O lifts, though I don't know everyone on the forum, so I could easily be wrong. @Testiclaw, you mentioned you were even sponsored. What are/were your lifts?

700-400-616 were my best a long time ago, at 242(236), but that was in the era of equipped lifting, except for the deadlift. I was easily, EASILY, an awful powerlifter.

I was one of Brent Mikesell's lifters, though.

Looking back, I wished I wouldn't have wastes my time doing equipped lifting, but it's too late, now.

[Testiclaw]

My big idea is that how strong someone is, or, the "N=1", isn't hugely relevant to me. If there are some bits and pieces that are useful or seem like they have merit, I'll investigate.

But my job requires me to program and train multiple competitive lifters, so the, "X has the biggest jerk on the board" or "Y has the biggest snatch" argument just doesn't convince me.

That's all I was getting at. Rather than numbers, I'm more interested in seeing who people have trained because it's more relevant to me, and, easier to sift through the noise.