Experiments with Deadlift Volume

[Hanley]

Stop noceboing yourself, Hanley. I believe in you.

Without knowing Great Nocebo, one can not cultivate The Great Indifference.

One must have Great Doubt for Great Enlightenment. One must have a Dark Night of the Soul to know God.

Or something.

[alek]

@Hanley, what about the squat is detrimental to pulling volume? Is it specific like too much low back fatigue, or is it more systemic? I had great success with MM last year--deadlift 1rm went from 405 to 465 in about 7 months--while low-bar squatting three times a week.

In general, would switching to leg press from squats allow one to do more pulling volume? I imagine there's some variance depending on a person's work capacity.

[lehman906]

I was going to ask the same thing. Might be pure correlation, but it seems like my deadlift goes up when I leg press.

[Hanley]

Hanley, what about the squat is detrimental to pulling volume? Is it specific like too much low back fatigue,

Yup. But that local fatigue and muscle damage will also manifest as central fatigue.

I had great success with MM last year--deadlift 1rm went from 405 to 465 in about 7 months--while low-bar squatting three times a week.

Very cool. I fussed quite a bit with fatigue management in that template.

In general, would switching to leg press from squats allow one to do more pulling volume? I imagine there's some variance depending on a person's work capacity.

Yeah. Leg Press + glute ham machine would be a pretty great combo (and not very fatiguing).

[alek]

Hanley, what about the squat is detrimental to pulling volume? Is it specific like too much low back fatigue,

Yup. But that local fatigue and muscle damage will also manifest as central fatigue.

I had great success with MM last year--deadlift 1rm went from 405 to 465 in about 7 months--while low-bar squatting three times a week.

Very cool. I fussed quite a bit with fatigue management in that template.

In general, would switching to leg press from squats allow one to do more pulling volume? I imagine there's some variance depending on a person's work capacity.

Yeah. Leg Press + glute ham machine would be a pretty great combo (and not very fatiguing).

Thanks for the response. How does this sound?

Ala your bench template, alternate high volume leg press sessions—one at “65%” and one at “70%”—and do 12 to 16 reps of your squat of choice at ~85% in singles and doubles every third week or so.

I imagine this wouldn’t compromise pulling volume as long as you’re careful, and it may be an option for those that want to do more pulling while still doing some squatting.

[cole]

I can never tell if I need more stress/volume or less with dead lifts. But I need something, that's for sure. I tried the flat shoes, hell no. Next, I'll try widen ing my stance. I have been modeling my training after the great dentist, Dr Austin Baraki, who squats high volume on Mondays and follows it with high volume deadlift on Tuesday. Then squat variant Thurs and dead variant Fri. This, apparently works for him.

[Chebass88]

As preparation for this deadlift experiment and to put a stake in the ground, I did some rough speed tests at varying percentages. I rested 2:00 between all reps, and used my tape measure as the distance indicator. I don’t know if it has any bearing on the experiment - I also have video of these lifts as well.

Results:
e1RM = 605, based on last week’s 515x5
70% (425) was at 0.37 m/s
75% (455) was at 0.42 m/s
80% (485) was at 0.37 m/s
85% (515) was at 0.27 m/s
90% (545) was at 0.23 m/s

Subjectively, I rated the 545x1 rep @10, in that I did not think I would have been able to get anything at 575 (95%). From a quick look online, it doesn’t seem like 0.23m/s is a limit - perhaps I need to learn to push harder and do more anyway.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I can never tell if I need more stress/volume or less with dead lifts. But I need something, that's for sure. I tried the flat shoes, hell no. Next, I'll try widen ing my stance. I have been modeling my training after the great dentist, Dr Austin Baraki, who squats high volume on Mondays and follows it with high volume deadlift on Tuesday. Then squat variant Thurs and dead variant Fri. This, apparently works for him.

How many sessions did you try this for? Depending on how long you've pulled in Heels for Flats can take a while to even not feel awful.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Subjectively, I rated the 545x1 rep @10, in that I did not think I would have been able to get anything at 575 (95%). From a quick look online, it doesn’t seem like 0.23m/s is a limit - perhaps I need to learn to push harder and do more anyway.

Are you a Grinder? Off the top of my head I don't recall any of your limit pulls looking particularly slow but I cannot be sure...just might be something to consider here?

[lehman906]

As preparation for this deadlift experiment and to put a stake in the ground, I did some rough speed tests at varying percentages. I rested 2:00 between all reps, and used my tape measure as the distance indicator. I don’t know if it has any bearing on the experiment - I also have video of these lifts as well.

Results:
e1RM = 605, based on last week’s 515x5
70% (425) was at 0.37 m/s
75% (455) was at 0.42 m/s
80% (485) was at 0.37 m/s
85% (515) was at 0.27 m/s
90% (545) was at 0.23 m/s

Subjectively, I rated the 545x1 rep @10, in that I did not think I would have been able to get anything at 575 (95%). From a quick look online, it doesn’t seem like 0.23m/s is a limit - perhaps I need to learn to push harder and do more anyway.

Does this mean the new experiment starts Monday?

[Goat]

Definitely interested in giving this a shot! New experiment today?

[Chebass88]

Subjectively, I rated the 545x1 rep @10, in that I did not think I would have been able to get anything at 575 (95%). From a quick look online, it doesn’t seem like 0.23m/s is a limit - perhaps I need to learn to push harder and do more anyway.

Are you a Grinder? Off the top of my head I don't recall any of your limit pulls looking particularly slow but I cannot be sure...just might be something to consider here?

I'm definitely not good at grinding, at least not in the "spend five seconds trying to get a lift" fashion. Whenever I've rated RPEs, they are always higher than the video playback indicates.

It could also be a mental block too - as soon as I decide that I'm done, any subsequent rep doesn't go. In my little experiment from Saturday - I didn't even attempt 575, as I perceived 545 as "tough", and the lack of mental focus works as a very effective off-switch for deadlifts.

Does this mean the new experiment starts Monday?

Yes indeedy. Tomorrow will be snatch grip deads and bentover rows.

@Hanley - what do you think of the following for snatch grip volume? This is at the upper range of the guidance from the Bench thread/

Set 1: SGDL 82% x 6 (based on SGDL = ~90% of conventional, so ~445)
Set 2: SGDL 75% x 6 (~410)
Set 3: SGDL 75% x 6
Set 4: SGDL 75% x 6

Inter-set rest would be ~3 minutes.

Bentover rows: I did ~42% of deadlift last week for 5x5, but it was sloppy, so I'd be inclined to stay at that weight again, to maybe work my way to 5x8 total. Using bench-width grip (ring fingers on rings, with straps).

[lehman906]

Subjectively, I rated the 545x1 rep @10, in that I did not think I would have been able to get anything at 575 (95%). From a quick look online, it doesn’t seem like 0.23m/s is a limit - perhaps I need to learn to push harder and do more anyway.

Are you a Grinder? Off the top of my head I don't recall any of your limit pulls looking particularly slow but I cannot be sure...just might be something to consider here?

I'm definitely not good at grinding, at least not in the "spend five seconds trying to get a lift" fashion. Whenever I've rated RPEs, they are always higher than the video playback indicates.

It could also be a mental block too - as soon as I decide that I'm done, any subsequent rep doesn't go. In my little experiment from Saturday - I didn't even attempt 575, as I perceived 545 as "tough", and the lack of mental focus works as a very effective off-switch for deadlifts.

Does this mean the new experiment starts Monday?

Yes indeedy. Tomorrow will be snatch grip deads and bentover rows.

@Hanley - what do you think of the following for snatch grip volume? This is at the upper range of the guidance from the Bench thread/

Set 1: SGDL 82% x 6 (based on SGDL = ~90% of conventional, so ~445)
Set 2: SGDL 75% x 6 (~410)
Set 3: SGDL 75% x 6
Set 4: SGDL 75% x 6

Inter-set rest would be ~3 minutes.

Bentover rows: I did ~42% of deadlift last week for 5x5, but it was sloppy, so I'd be inclined to stay at that weight again, to maybe work my way to 5x8 total. Using bench-width grip (ring fingers on rings, with straps).

That sounds pretty similar to what I wa doing (I figured it as 65% of comp E1Rm, but whatever). I’m probably going to shamelessly mirror what you guys are doing, hopefully starting today. That is, if I can get to the gym between the blizzard and the temps dropping to -15. Maybe I’ll add some chins and curls.

[Hanley]

Hanley - what do you think of the following for snatch grip volume? This is at the upper range of the guidance from the Bench thread/

Set 1: SGDL 82% x 6 (based on SGDL = ~90% of conventional, so ~445)
Set 2: SGDL 75% x 6 (~410)
Set 3: SGDL 75% x 6
Set 4: SGDL 75% x 6

This is the SGDL "high stress", yeah? (certainly looks high stress). So, we'd pair it with conventional "low-ish stress" (singles between - maybe 77-82%) later in the week?

As SGDL high stress....I think it looks spot-on. I'm throwing the sessions into a training calendar today.

[jake]

I'm not squatting currently, so I'm going to jump onboard with this (and the bench experiment as well).

[Chebass88]

Hanley - what do you think of the following for snatch grip volume? This is at the upper range of the guidance from the Bench thread/

Set 1: SGDL 82% x 6 (based on SGDL = ~90% of conventional, so ~445)
Set 2: SGDL 75% x 6 (~410)
Set 3: SGDL 75% x 6
Set 4: SGDL 75% x 6

This is the SGDL "high stress", yeah? (certainly looks high stress). So, we'd pair it with conventional "low-ish stress" (singles between - maybe 77-82%) later in the week?

As SGDL high stress....I think it looks spot-on. I'm throwing the sessions into a training calendar today.

First session of the experiment completed. I did all of the sets T&G, and inter-set rest was probably closer to 4 minutes. I ended up doing 7 reps on the last backoff set, as I lost count, and wanted to make sure I definitely did 6 total. In terms of RPE, the sets were definitely not @10, maybe @8 (?). I typically overestimate RPEs, so that might not be the best value to use.

Looking forward to the singles this weekend. What kind of rest period would you recommend for singles - is 2:00 okay?

[CtMcBride]

Tuesday was 85%x1, 89%x1, 92%x1, 85x1x5, rest as needed up to the 92, then about 90 seconds for the backoffs.. I think that was about right, given that pretty much everything hurt for ~72 hours and then chilled out in time for today's workout. Next week I'm planning to go 85%x1x10, so should be lower total stress but a little more volume.

Today was 55% of conventional for 7 sets of 5 on SGDL. Probably too easy. Maybe too light, maybe not enough volume, but the RPE never got above about a 4 (if that.) We'll see if I regret anything the next couple days.

I'm ending the sessions with 70% sets of 5 on front squats, so I can probably get away with lower stress on the DL portion.

[GlasgowJock]

Today was 55% of conventional for 7 sets of 5 on SGDL. Probably too easy. Maybe too light,

Perhaps, but it's good volume nonetheless.

[lehman906]

Ok, so I’m trying to combine the bench and deadlift experiments from the two threads and basically stalking Chebass. Here’s what I’ve come up with:

Day one: Accessory pulling
Wk1: heavy stress: Deficit DL-top set of 6, -7ish % back offs
Wk2: medium stress: SGDL-65% of convDL for 3x6
Wk3: light stress: SGDL-60% for 5x5
Accessory stuff

Day Two: Bench
Wk1: 65% for 7-11 sets of 7. Add sets before adding weight.
Wk2: 80% for 6-8x2
Wk3: 70% for 7-10x5
Bro-tastic accessories

Day three: both
Bench
Wk1: 70% for 7-10x5
Wk2: 65% for 7-11x7
Wk3: 8-10 singles up to 92%. Take a crack at something heavier if they’re flying up.
Comp DL
Wk1: light stress 8-15 reps at 80%
Wk2: medium stress 8-12 reps from 82-90%
Wk3: heavy stress 8 reps up to a heavy single. I don’t have a set up that will work with bands, and rack pulls are less than my off the floor work, not Supra max. Is that an argument for doing them more?
Chins/Dips

Anything glaring in this? Should I do more 65/70% work before doing the heavier days?

[Chebass88]

... So, we'd pair it with conventional "low-ish stress" (singles between - maybe 77-82%) later in the week?

Experiment update.

I did 15 singles this past Saturday as the primary deadlift session. The weight ranged from ~77.5% to ~83.5% (*), performed as follows:

77.5% x 1
(83.5% x 1) x 4
(80% x 1) x 10

(* - percentages based on e1RM of 605, using relatively recent "max" of 515x5).

I did all reps with 2:00 rest between pulls (sequence was timer end, align phone, start camera, setup, pull, stop camera, reset 2:00 timer, record results / trim video during remaining time). The RPE ranged from @6-7 for the first 3-4 reps, to as high as @7-8 for the final 3-4 reps. The last one was solidly a 7. The rep that was @8 was due to rushing the setup, and allowing myself to lose really tight mental focus.

Fatigue assessment:
After 24 hours - not too shabby. I was pretty tired, but that was due more to staying up late, playing a gig, and not getting enough sleep. Both little guys are sick, so the morning was spent trying to fend off germ transfers. I dialed back the rowing intensity yesterday as a result of being tired, but even at a slightly slower pace, I was not as fatigued as rowing the day after deadlifts normally is. (How is THAT for a nice, subjective, wishy-washy metric of fatigue?). After 48 hours, while slightly tired and grumpy while coming into work, I'm not sore from deadlifts. Tomorrow's snatch grips will be f'n AWESOME.

A look at the HNFM:

WEEK	DAY	LIFT	WORK	HNFM
1	1	SGDL	82%x6 (75% x 6)x 3	472 (*)
1	2	DL	77.5% x 1 (83.5% x 1) x 4 (80% x 1) x 10	422

(*) - Presented as percentage of SGDL, based on assumption of max SGDL is ~90% conventional deadlift.