Experiments with Deadlift Volume

[SeanHerbison]

Both little guys are sick, so the morning was spent trying to fend off germ transfers.

Young children are effectively biological warfare weapons.

[alek]

Both little guys are sick, so the morning was spent trying to fend off germ transfers.

Young children are effectively biological warfare weapons.

I’m stealing this saying.

[iamsmu]

I guess you've built up some serious rowing capacity. I'm rowing a fraction of what you do, but the day after rowing I feel much weaker on deadlifts. Maybe my deadlift volume is too high or I'm just not used to rowing yet. I haven't been very consistent. . . . Either way I cant imagine rowing 8k and then deadlifting high volume the next day.

[Hanley]

Tomorrow's snatch grips will be f'n AWESOME.

I kinda sorta might've bumped the targeted session volume.

This is what I prepped for the session:

30-35 reps with ~72.5% of SGDL e1RM in variable-rep sets of 4-7 reps

35 might be a bit aggressive, but the fatigue metric is about what you've been doing...I think fatigue will dissipate by the next pull session.

[Chebass88]

...
35 might be a bit aggressive, but the fatigue metric is about what you've been doing...I think fatigue will dissipate by the next pull session.

Thanks! I’m looking forward to it.

[Monoides]

I guess you've built up some serious rowing capacity. I'm rowing a fraction of what you do, but the day after rowing I feel much weaker on deadlifts. Maybe my deadlift volume is too high or I'm just not used to rowing yet. I haven't been very consistent. . . . Either way I cant imagine rowing 8k and then deadlifting high volume the next day.

If you've not been training consistently, rowing produces a lot of 'stealth fatigue' on the lower back. That said, I've found fewer things improve low back work capacity better than a couple of months of consistent rowing.

[iamsmu]

I guess you've built up some serious rowing capacity. I'm rowing a fraction of what you do, but the day after rowing I feel much weaker on deadlifts. Maybe my deadlift volume is too high or I'm just not used to rowing yet. I haven't been very consistent. . . . Either way I cant imagine rowing 8k and then deadlifting high volume the next day.

If you've not been training consistently, rowing produces a lot of 'stealth fatigue' on the lower back. That said, I've found fewer things improve low back work capacity better than a couple of months of consistent rowing.

I'll try to be consistent. It is indeed stealthy. I don't notice it until I go to deadlift.

[Chebass88]

I've now completed two weeks of the experiment, so here is my update of results. Today's lifting consisted of 8 singles, ranging from 82-94%. Each lift got ~3:00 rest. The RPEs ranged from 6-7 for 82% (thanks to @Manveer & @KOTJ for input!) to 8 or less on the final set. The 94% was ~8 (?). Video evidence:



In terms of fatigue management, I might have inadvertently messed with the experiment. I took a new position at work, which involves a LOT of movement throughout the day (e.g., go take a 5 minute walk to confirm an instrument reading, climb a few flights of stairs to get it, return to original location, repeat throughout day). I skipped both cardio sessions this week, due to a lack of time. Both little guys are still sick, and my wife has been bed-ridden for a few days due to being sick. I'm probably in the running for some sickness as well due to various exposures.

While it wasn't part of the experiment per se, I'm learning to evaluate RPEs a little better. If I focus on how it FEELS, I consistently over-rate by about 1.5-2RPE units. All of the RPEs presented in this experiment are based on the video of each set.

A look at the HNFM:

WEEK	DAY	LIFT	WORK	HNFM
1	1	SGDL	82%x6 (75% x 6)x 3	472 (*)
1	2	DL	77.5% x 1 (83.5% x 1) x 4 (80% x 1) x 10	422
2	1	SGDL	72.5% x 36 (6 sets)	475.2 (*)
2	2	DL	82% x 1 85% x 1 86% x 1 89% x 1 94% x 1 (85% x 1) x 3	647.1

(*) - Presented as percentage of SGDL, based on assumption of max SGDL is ~90% conventional deadlift.

@Hanley, a question for you. For the latest session, why were the singles pyramided up? If left to my own devices without the guidance to pyramid them, I probably would have warmed up and done the 94% directly, with maybe a final warmup at ~82% on the way up. The basis for this would be to get as much big work done as quickly as possible, with the backoff reps being "icing on the cake" type reps.

You've mentioned elsewhere about muscle temperature having a large impact on power output (you mentioned this in the context of measuring max power via Wingate tests in the rowing thread). As written, the 94% wasn't all that difficult, but likely would have been more difficult if I had gone right to it. Is there validity to such a warmup pattern for the slow-lifts as well?

[Hanley]

Is there validity to such a warmup pattern for the slow-lifts as well?

I think so. I don't start hitting peak velocities (and presumably peak forces) until mid (or - like today - late) session. Might be because I'm working out in temps between 28-40 degrees (that's in an insulated garage), and it literally takes most of the session to get warm.

[Chebass88]

What a great day to be alive. Yesterday marked the third week of the Deadlift Experiment, so here is another update.

This week was 4x4 snatch grips and rack pulls. They both went very well. Due to my change in position at work, I skipped barbell rows this past week, and haven't done any cardio work in two weeks. I think I'm establishing a bit of a schedule, so that should help in the next few weeks. Rack pulls are fun. I don't have much experience with them, but they seem to take the legs out of the picture, while still presenting a hearty stress to the lower back and hips. I've read that Brad Gillingham used them in his training, so that is a tick in the "pros" column.

In terms of fatigue, this is like night & day. For most sessions, I've felt like I could have done more (if I were to take myself to the point of being "completely spent", my typical MO), and have felt recovered for the next deadlift session. There is some awareness of having deadlifted - for example, the day after snatch grips this week, I was aware of having used my hips & glutes the day before. It is not as severe as having done the Hepburn training (8x2-3 @ 80%), but when I had success with that method, I was squatting once per week as well, in a similar set & rep scheme.

A look at the HNFM for this first cycle:

WEEK	DAY	LIFT	WORK	HNFM
1	1	SGDL	82%x6 (75% x 6)x 3	472 (*)
1	2	DL	77.5% x 1 (83.5% x 1) x 4 (80% x 1) x 10	422
2	1	SGDL	72.5% x 36 (6 sets)	475.2 (*)
2	2	DL	82% x 1 85% x 1 86% x 1 89% x 1 94% x 1 (85% x 1) x 3	647.1
3	1	SGDL	80% x 4 x 4	400 (*)
3	2	RACK PULLS (**)	85% x 1 90% x 1 95% x 1 100% x 1 105% x 1 (85% x 1) x 3	N/A

(*) - Presented as percentage of SGDL, based on assumption of max SGDL is ~90% conventional deadlift.
(**) - Rack pulls shown as % deadlift

@Hanley - a few questions for you.

What are your thoughts on progression for the next cycle? This cycle was based on an e1RM - would it be kosher to add ~10lbs to e1RM and repeat? Is it necessary to test a maximum as a basis for the next cycle?

Re. rack pulls - do you have a ratio you'd like to see for rack pull to deadlift? I searched a bit, but was unable to find a solid value.

[Hanley]

would it be kosher to add ~10lbs to e1RM and repeat?

Yup. I think that's exactly what we do.

How's residual fatigue from the rack pulls? I'm debating the "autoregulate intersession rest" thing...and don't know if SGDL's tomorrow 2/19 or 2/20 would be better.

Re. rack pulls - do you have a ratio you'd like to see for rack pull to deadlift? I searched a bit, but was unable to find a solid value.

Man...it's really tricky to pin down a number because a 1" change in ROM can change a rack pull e1RM by 5%. With that qualification out of the way, I'd say rack pull should be 107-110ish% of deadlift.

[ohlol]

I sloppily (I have trouble gauging bar distance from my shins on them) rack pulled 405x4@9 the same week I did 405x1@8, for what it's worth.

[Chebass88]

would it be kosher to add ~10lbs to e1RM and repeat?

Yup. I think that's exactly what we do.

How's residual fatigue from the rack pulls? I'm debating the "autoregulate intersession rest" thing...and don't know if SGDL's tomorrow 2/19 or 2/20 would be better.

Re. rack pulls - do you have a ratio you'd like to see for rack pull to deadlift? I searched a bit, but was unable to find a solid value.

Man...it's really tricky to pin down a number because a 1" change in ROM can change a rack pull e1RM by 5%. With that qualification out of the way, I'd say rack pull should be 107-110ish% of deadlift.

The fatigue is feeling pretty good. That might have been helped by an easy rowing session the day after, which helped move some blood around. I had some soreness in hamstrings / glutes yesterday, but that might have been due to sitting on a floor building Legos. A bigger contributor may be staying up too late reading nonsense when I should be sleeping.

I’m going to plan on doing the snatch grippers today (three days after rack pulls) due to various circumstances this week - needing to watch little guys, somewhat unknown work schedule, etc. Hopefully I won’t have to resort to deadlifting after the little ones go to bed.

[Chebass88]

I’ve been pretty awful about updating this thread. The deadlift volume experiment is still going, and is going really well.

This week was the beginning of the second cycle, with e1RMs bumped up by 10lbs each. The sessions were:

SGDL: 82%x6, (75%x6)x3
DL: singles at ~77,79,82,84%, plus 10 singles at 80%

There was quite a bit of fatigue on the days immediately following the lifting days, but it dissipates nicely. I feel a little sluggish during warmups, but that all goes away by first working set. Every rep has been quick, with no grinds.

[alek]

I’ve been pretty awful about updating this thread. The deadlift volume experiment is still going, and is going really well.

This week was the beginning of the second cycle, with e1RMs bumped up by 10lbs each. The sessions were:

SGDL: 82%x6, (75%x6)x3
DL: singles at ~77,79,82,84%, plus 10 singles at 80%

There was quite a bit of fatigue on the days immediately following the lifting days, but it dissipates nicely. I feel a little sluggish during warmups, but that all goes away by first working set. Every rep has been quick, with no grinds.

I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I am glad you're doing this experiment and sharing it with us. I'm not doing exactly the same thing, but if you squint, it kinda is similar.

[Chebass88]

The deadlift experiment is still on! I'm entering the third week of the second three-week cycle, with e1RMs for conventional deadlift & snatch grip deadlifts both bumped up by 10lbs.

Here are a few numbers for the second cycle:

WEEK	DAY	LIFT	WORK	HNFM	INOL
1	1	SGDL	82%x6 (75% x 6)x 3	483 (*)	1.09
1	2	DL	77% x 1 79% x 1 82% x 1 84% x 1 (80% x 1) x 10	353	0.70
2	1	SGDL	(73% x 5) x 7	479 (*)	1.29
2	2	DL	82% x 1 85% x 1 86% x 1 89% x 1 96% x 1 (85% x 1) x 3	934 (???)	0.72
3	1	SGDL	TBD	TBD (*)	TBD
3	2	RACK PULLS (**)	TBD	N/A	N/A

(*) - Presented as percentage of SGDL, based on assumption of max SGDL is ~90% conventional deadlift.
(**) - Rack pulls shown as % deadlift

I included INOL as the HNFM blows up closer to maxes.

So far, this is a great program. I'm still below my all-time max 1RMs in the e1RMs, but this was based on what I thought was a max effort set immediately prior to starting the experiment (515x5 = e1RM 605). I've been learning that I over-rate RPE for deadlifts by at least 1. I've been recording every set to gauge RPE as a feedback to @Hanley, and it is reassuring to see the bar moving faster than I've perceived it to move.

I've been enjoying the combination of SGDL for reps and conventional deadlift for singles. The singles are pretty nice, and when kept to a very tight inter-set rest period, present a nice stimulus. The SGDL is a fine lift, and doing it for reps is challenging and fun. I'm sort-of close to my all-time max conventional 10RM on snatch grips, which is a fun place to be (460x10 conventional, 455x6 @ 7, SGDL), so it will be especially cool once I surpass previous maxes. Rack pulls should be a real blast this coming week.

In terms of fatigue, I'm definitely aware of having deadlifted the day after I lift. I've also been spending a lot of time standing on a job site in workboots, and not enough time doing regular cardio work. My new office is on the third floor, so I try to run up the stairs as fast as possible whenever I go back to my desk, as a special reward to myself. It isn't a substitute for regular, long duration cardio, but I have to take what I can squeeze in.

[cgeorg]

My new office is on the third floor, so I try to run up the stairs as fast as possible whenever I go back to my desk, as a special reward to myself.

Your log posts never fail to make me smile. Thank you.

[alek]

@chebass88, are you still doing this? Got any updates?

[Chebass88]

Sorry about letting this drop. I only completed two cycles. At the end of the second, I caught some nasty strep throat and lost about a week there. Due to work schedule, I was having trouble also fitting in a bench session and second rowing session. I’d like to return to this program when work settles down - in the meantime, the OT is nice.

I only did two cycles, so that isn’t a lot of data. I was able to increase the weights used in the second cycle, which is always a good thing. I particularly enjoyed the snatch grip sessions - that is a fun lift.