Martha Rogers Thread

[MPhelps]

Well depending on who you ask, they're either 100% full natty because America, or their on the juice because they all are to some extent, it's just the dumb and/or unlucky ones that get caught. I have no idea which one I believe.

[Ragholmes]

... or their on the juice because they all are to some extent, it's just the dumb and/or unlucky ones that get caught.

It's the second one. You can't say all because there are a few who don't, but it is most professional athletes.
The public/media likes to get all upset when one of their heroes gets caught and crucifies them. But they're all burying their heads in the sand, the evidence is out there for everyone to see if they just look.
For example, when they decided to take the Tour De France wins away from Lance Armstrong they went back to his first win and were going to give it to the guy who came second, but that guy had been busted at some point since that race. So they were going to give it to the third guy, but he'd been busted too. And so it went on down the line, I'm going off memory here but it wasn't until they got to something like 36th place before they found a cyclist who hadn't tested positive.
Example number 2, and I'm showing my age here. But for those my age they will remember the huge ruckus when Ben Johnson tested positive after winning the 100m Gold medal at the LA Olympics. There was 7 other people in that race. In the following 10 or so years 6 of them tested positive. That only leaves 1 who didn't, Carl Lewis, who then admitted to taking steroids in his autobiography.
It often doesn't make the news when these athletes die because their fame has faded, but it is amazing how many once high profile athletes die in their 40's and 50's, usually from cardiac issues. This is especially noticable if you look at ex professional cyclists.

[SeanHerbison]

... or their on the juice because they all are to some extent, it's just the dumb and/or unlucky ones that get caught.

It's the second one. You can't say all because there are a few who don't, but it is most professional athletes.

Drug testing has improved a lot since the Armstrong thing. And specifically for weightlifting (not talking football or anything like that where money is the primary consideration), the US really doesn't like getting caught on the international stage, so they do their honest best to catch them beforehand. It's not like Russia, where the only purpose of national testing is to make sure their timing is correct to pass international tests.

I really don't understand why people who are not directly involved in this are so confident in either direction though.

[mbasic]

For example, when they decided to take the Tour De France wins away from Lance Armstrong they went back to his first win and were going to give it to the guy who came second, but that guy had been busted at some point since that race. So they were going to give it to the third guy, but he'd been busted too. And so it went on down the line, I'm going off memory here but it wasn't until they got to something like 36th place before they found a cyclist who hadn't tested positive.
Example number 2, and I'm showing my age here. But for those my age they will remember the huge ruckus when Ben Johnson tested positive after winning the 100m Gold medal at the LA Olympics. There was 7 other people in that race. In the following 10 or so years 6 of them tested positive. That only leaves 1 who didn't, Carl Lewis, who then admitted to taking steroids in his autobiography.

kinda off point here but

yeah, "retroactive-ness" of it makes for some funny shit.
Kinda like a slapstick comedy where they play with a time machine and create a bunch of alternate scenarios.

In the Olympic WL retests, they had to take medals away, and then give them to athletes that had served sanctions years before hand
(a bonafide known drug user) ....

Or, I think there was a case of a guy who got a medal by default (lifter above him got popped),
but then he himself later on was retroactively popped, but for a meet at a later date then the one he got the medal via DQ.
So I think he got to keep his medal because ex post facto whatever.

[MPhelps]

Exactly, which is why I really can't take a side... but really... Am I THAT slow of a cross country skier or THAT shitty of an Olympic lifter?? Probably, but I think there is also the possibility of really low level drug use among the elite that have professional coaching.

I don't know because I am not in those circles and they wouldn't tell anyone anyway. So I can just speculate.

But my official random dude on the internet stance is that unless I know otherwise, WADA is doing it's job and Western athletes are competing clean.

[mbasic]

Exactly, which is why I really can't take a side... but really... Am I THAT slow of a cross country skier or THAT shitty of an Olympic lifter?? Probably, but I think there is also the possibility of really low level drug use among the elite that have professional coaching.

I don't know because I am not in those circles and they wouldn't tell anyone anyway. So I can just speculate.

But my official random dude on the internet stance is that unless I know otherwise, WADA is doing it's job and Western athletes are competing clean.

I think a bigger "eye opener" is when some no name competing in the Olympics and/or Worlds gets busted,
and is somewhere around 13th place, or a mid-level B session lifter.

And I'm not talking gets popped for some shitty SARM or DHEA or whatever,
but gets popped for hardcore anabolics.

That's more telling story than Ilya getting busted (twice) in some ways.

[asdf]

For example, when they decided to take the Tour De France wins away from Lance Armstrong they went back to his first win and were going to give it to the guy who came second, but that guy had been busted at some point since that race. So they were going to give it to the third guy, but he'd been busted too. And so it went on down the line, I'm going off memory here but it wasn't until they got to something like 36th place before they found a cyclist who hadn't tested positive.

Nah. There are many riders who finished in the top 10 of the Tour in the years Armstrong won who never tested positive. Admittedly, many of them were on teams where others were found to be using, or there were rumors about them, but that's different from actually popping.

[mbasic]

For example, when they decided to take the Tour De France wins away from Lance Armstrong they went back to his first win and were going to give it to the guy who came second, but that guy had been busted at some point since that race. So they were going to give it to the third guy, but he'd been busted too. And so it went on down the line, I'm going off memory here but it wasn't until they got to something like 36th place before they found a cyclist who hadn't tested positive.

Nah. There are many riders who finished in the top 10 of the Tour in the years Armstrong won who never tested positive. Admittedly, many of them were on teams where others were found to be using, or there were rumors about them, but that's different from actually popping.

wikipedia-ing it, I guess the bike fed or whatever decided not to award to medals to anyone after they DQ'd Lance.

[MPhelps]

Exactly, which is why I really can't take a side... but really... Am I THAT slow of a cross country skier or THAT shitty of an Olympic lifter?? Probably, but I think there is also the possibility of really low level drug use among the elite that have professional coaching.

I don't know because I am not in those circles and they wouldn't tell anyone anyway. So I can just speculate.

But my official random dude on the internet stance is that unless I know otherwise, WADA is doing it's job and Western athletes are competing clean.

I think a bigger "eye opener" is when some no name competing in the Olympics and/or Worlds gets busted,
and is somewhere around 13th place, or a mid-level B session lifter.

And I'm not talking gets popped for some shitty SARM or DHEA or whatever,
but gets popped for hardcore anabolics.

That's more telling story than Ilya getting busted (twice) in some ways.

Like more telling that everyone who wants to compete at that level has to do it even to be an also-ran? Sort of like you have to have talent, money and natural athleticism to get to worlds in the first place, and then have to do whatever doping your team does, submit to WADA controls and on top of that, be the best of the best to medal.

It's kind of hilarious to me when you hear about doping busts for local meet weekend warrior types. Like you risked your health to win a race or meet that is basically for fun and the only real prize is bragging rights...

[Schenck]

Nah. There are many riders who finished in the top 10 of the Tour in the years Armstrong won who never tested positive. Admittedly, many of them were on teams where others were found to be using, or there were rumors about them, but that's different from actually popping.

Lance never tested dirty either. Obvious case of why testing clean only tells us so much.

[SeanHerbison]

Lance never tested dirty either. Obvious case of why testing clean only tells us so much.

Different protocols, different sport, and a lot more money on the line. I get what you're going for, but it's a different situation.

[Schenck]

Lance never tested dirty either. Obvious case of why testing clean only tells us so much.

Different protocols, different sport, and a lot more money on the line. I get what you're going for, but it's a different situation.

Same sport, same protocols. I was responding to a comment on cyclists in The Tour.

[asdf]

Nah. There are many riders who finished in the top 10 of the Tour in the years Armstrong won who never tested positive. Admittedly, many of them were on teams where others were found to be using, or there were rumors about them, but that's different from actually popping.

Lance never tested dirty either. Obvious case of why testing clean only tells us so much.

I'm not sure what your point is. I was just responding to the claim that "...it wasn't until they got to something like 36th place before they found a cyclist who hadn't tested positive," which is false.

[Ragholmes]

I'm not sure what your point is. I was just responding to the claim that "...it wasn't until they got to something like 36th place before they found a cyclist who hadn't tested positive," which is false.

I admit my memory of those years is a little fuzzy and that the number may have grown in in my head over time. Or it may have been something like 36 riders from that race had tested positive since. For some reason the number 36 popped into my head.
I just did a very quick google of the top 10 from Lances first win, most of them have either tested positive or been implicated in doping scandals. The guy who came 3rd never was.
I apologize for my misrepresentation diluting my point, the point remains the same though. As @mbasic noted, the results of those years are left blank. Because of the rampant drug use.
Maybe things have gotten better. I can only speak for the late 80's and 90's, the vast majority of professional athletes were taking drugs and everyone on the inside knew it, and that includes the governing bodies and those who were doing the actual testing.

[SeanHerbison]

Lance never tested dirty either. Obvious case of why testing clean only tells us so much.

Different protocols, different sport, and a lot more money on the line. I get what you're going for, but it's a different situation.

Same sport, same protocols. I was responding to a comment on cyclists in The Tour.

Ah, gotcha. Thought you were trying to make a point about testing in general.

[asdf]

Cycling was (is?) dirty for sure. No dispute there. Armstrong himself tested positive several times during the 1999 Tour, but it was covered up.

[SeanHerbison]

By the way, it seems unlikely, but I'll ask anyway: anyone else here in Albuquerque for AO 2?

[SeanHerbison]

Well dang, Rogers and Alwine pushed each other so much they both bombed out. Lachance takes gold.

[mbasic]

Well dang, Rogers and Alwine pushed each other so much they both bombed out. Lachance takes gold.

Lol, I predicted a high number of bombings on the Reddit thread (higher than the normal level of "too high")

[CamLeslie]

It's kind of hilarious to me when you hear about doping busts for local meet weekend warrior types. Like you risked your health to win a race or meet that is basically for fun and the only real prize is bragging rights...

You reminded me of this article I read once about a guy cheating at marathons.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012 ... rathon-man

Pretty good, but long, read.