Engage Bear Mode, or... Who is on a bulk?

[throwinshapes]

9 weeks in, 6lb gained. If I can believe the relative accuracy of calipers, 51% was lean mass gain. If I can keep that ratio the next 4-5mo I'll be pretty happy.

This is after dropping 42lb on the last cut. So I was worried most initial mass gained would be fat. Although I spent the summer at maintenance.

[Wilhelm]

I'm seriously condidering dropping calories now.

I'm starting week 17 of surplus, my average is 3,537 calories daily, and i've gained 5 lbs plus or minus a little.
Belt went down one hole at the end of the cut, is back up one and not too tight there.

Body comp is better than before the cut, but i have plenty of fat i could be using to remain in a surplus, since i'm fully fat adapted (keto for over three years running).

I just don't think i can stand to keep up this level of intake.
Pretty sure i will be able to continue to get stronger if i average between 3,000 and 3,200 calories daily.
I just need to be comfortable even if i see a drop in weight.

If my lifts go up for the meet, my IPF points will jump way up if i'm significantly lighter.
Awards in my meets are age adjusted IPF points across all classes, including the Open, as there aren't really full groups in the Masters.

My total is what matters most, but a higher award would be a cool bonus, if i can earn it.

[Wilhelm]

I wish i were on a cut now.
Slowly gaining on 3,300/3,400ish daily cals.

I've not been above 200lbs since sometime during losing 50lbs 2016/early 2017, but with no meets on the horizon, i think i'll try to get to 93kg before i cut this time.

194.5 morning weight for several days now.
Look at this shit. Really wish my maintenance were lower.

[FredM]

Isn’t getting strong weird?

I remember losing weight being so hard. Now I much prefer it. Bulking requires 8-9 hours of sleep and 3000+ calories even at 181 lbs now. I’m overly stuffed and on the verge of vomiting multiple times a day and my wife thinks I’m ridiculous (due to the eating and sleeping). Cutting is just skipping breakfast, working out 70% as much and sleeping 7 hrs.

[Wilhelm]

Isn’t getting strong weird?

I remember losing weight being so hard. Now I much prefer it. Bulking requires 8-9 hours of sleep and 3000+ calories even at 181 lbs now. I’m overly stuffed and on the verge of vomiting multiple times a day and my wife thinks I’m ridiculous (due to the eating and sleeping). Cutting is just skipping breakfast, working out 70% as much and sleeping 7 hrs.

Word

[413x]

I only weigh 170, and I'm slowly gaining with 3350 calories/day. I only want to gain 1.5-2lbs/month and I'm rarely hungry, but I'm still eating less than I want to. Recently I increased carbs and reduced fats, makes me happier with the same number of calories. I also have some vague idea that carbs>fats for building muscle... any thought on that?

[IronRon]

I only weigh 170, and I'm slowly gaining with 3350 calories/day. I only want to gain 1.5-2lbs/month and I'm rarely hungry, but I'm still eating less than I want to. Recently I increased carbs and reduced fats, makes me happier with the same number of calories. I also have some vague idea that carbs>fats for building muscle... any thought on that?

Carbs will definitely make your muscles look bigger and the energy carbs give you will help lift more and therefore gain more size if you want. However, fats are far more crucial for recovery. You can get away with low carb diets and lifting. I don't think you'd get away with low fat diets and lifting for long. Also fat is more calorific so undeniably good for adding size.

[413x]

I only weigh 170, and I'm slowly gaining with 3350 calories/day. I only want to gain 1.5-2lbs/month and I'm rarely hungry, but I'm still eating less than I want to. Recently I increased carbs and reduced fats, makes me happier with the same number of calories. I also have some vague idea that carbs>fats for building muscle... any thought on that?

Carbs will definitely make your muscles look bigger and the energy carbs give you will help lift more and therefore gain more size if you want. However, fats are far more crucial for recovery. You can get away with low carb diets and lifting. I don't think you'd get away with low fat diets and lifting for long. Also fat is more calorific so undeniably good for adding size.

I'll be more specific, carbs went from 400g to 500g and fat went from 125g to 80g. I doubt energy is really an issue for my easy workouts, maybe phosphocreatine, but I don't think that's effected by carb intake. I wonder if the increased water storage that you mention makes the muscles look bigger also has a mild anabolic effect (pure speculation). My diet still has plenty of fat, so i'm not worried about absorbing fat soluble vitamins or getting enough omega 3 or whatever. Do you think only 80g/day of fat is suboptimal for recovery? Calories are the same, so weight gain is unaffected (actually it jumped a little, but I assume that's water).

Ultimately I realize that this change isn't really gonna do much, my primary reason was that it improves my adherence to the caloric intake. But I'm curious if people think that higher carb=more water retention=more muscle or higher carb=more insulin=more muscle or higher carb=any mechansim=more muscle.

[ryanc]

Does unintentionally bulking count? I don't take nutrition serious enough to call it a real bulk, but when I'm not cutting I do tend to gain 10 lbs in about 6 months. Right now I'm just eating and trying to get my protein and am up about 10 lbs since November. Good progress on lifts, so I'll take it.

[Wilhelm]

Does unintentionally bulking count? I don't take nutrition serious enough to call it a real bulk, but when I'm not cutting I do tend to gain 10 lbs in about 6 months. Right now I'm just eating and trying to get my protein and am up about 10 lbs since November. Good progress on lifts, so I'll take it.

Sounds like you've perfected the process.

[FredM]

I only weigh 170, and I'm slowly gaining with 3350 calories/day. I only want to gain 1.5-2lbs/month and I'm rarely hungry, but I'm still eating less than I want to. Recently I increased carbs and reduced fats, makes me happier with the same number of calories. I also have some vague idea that carbs>fats for building muscle... any thought on that?

Carbs will definitely make your muscles look bigger and the energy carbs give you will help lift more and therefore gain more size if you want. However, fats are far more crucial for recovery. You can get away with low carb diets and lifting. I don't think you'd get away with low fat diets and lifting for long. Also fat is more calorific so undeniably good for adding size.

I'll be more specific, carbs went from 400g to 500g and fat went from 125g to 80g. I doubt energy is really an issue for my easy workouts, maybe phosphocreatine, but I don't think that's effected by carb intake. I wonder if the increased water storage that you mention makes the muscles look bigger also has a mild anabolic effect (pure speculation). My diet still has plenty of fat, so i'm not worried about absorbing fat soluble vitamins or getting enough omega 3 or whatever. Do you think only 80g/day of fat is suboptimal for recovery? Calories are the same, so weight gain is unaffected (actually it jumped a little, but I assume that's water).

Ultimately I realize that this change isn't really gonna do much, my primary reason was that it improves my adherence to the caloric intake. But I'm curious if people think that higher carb=more water retention=more muscle or higher carb=more insulin=more muscle or higher carb=any mechansim=more muscle.

I feel like it's generally accepted at this point, given that I've read it and listened to it from every major source of info I use (RP, Stronger by Science, BBM, Legion Athletics, and more), that the "optimal" solution is getting the bare minimum amount of high quality fats to facilitate hormone levels, about 0.8-1.5g/lb bw of protein (depending on cut/bulk/age), and filling out every single last calorie with carbs.

Greg and Eric (Stronger by Science) don't have any data to suggest that's also optimal for bulking, but both of them have suggested they think that's the case based off anecdotal evidence (guys they've seen manage to eat insane low fat, high carb diets on a bulk "look" to gain more muscle than average).

That said, "optimal" assumes everything else is kept equal. Most of us (like me) literally can't eat enough on a bulk with only 40-60g of fat (I eat closer to 100g), and there's only so many days I can chug enough water and whey on a cut to get much above 1g/bw of protein.

So as long as your lifts are going up, your measurements are only going up slowly, and you feel fairly "recovered" week to week, you're probably doing it right.

I really don't sweat this stuff anymore. I don't count calories or macros on cuts. I only count total calories in my head on bulks. It's been going as well, and probably better, than counting every single macro and trying to "optimize." As long as I'm gaining less than 1 lb/wk on my bulk and losing more than 1 lb/wk on my cut I know I'm doing it right.

[413x]

I only weigh 170, and I'm slowly gaining with 3350 calories/day. I only want to gain 1.5-2lbs/month and I'm rarely hungry, but I'm still eating less than I want to. Recently I increased carbs and reduced fats, makes me happier with the same number of calories. I also have some vague idea that carbs>fats for building muscle... any thought on that?

Carbs will definitely make your muscles look bigger and the energy carbs give you will help lift more and therefore gain more size if you want. However, fats are far more crucial for recovery. You can get away with low carb diets and lifting. I don't think you'd get away with low fat diets and lifting for long. Also fat is more calorific so undeniably good for adding size.

I'll be more specific, carbs went from 400g to 500g and fat went from 125g to 80g. I doubt energy is really an issue for my easy workouts, maybe phosphocreatine, but I don't think that's effected by carb intake. I wonder if the increased water storage that you mention makes the muscles look bigger also has a mild anabolic effect (pure speculation). My diet still has plenty of fat, so i'm not worried about absorbing fat soluble vitamins or getting enough omega 3 or whatever. Do you think only 80g/day of fat is suboptimal for recovery? Calories are the same, so weight gain is unaffected (actually it jumped a little, but I assume that's water).

Ultimately I realize that this change isn't really gonna do much, my primary reason was that it improves my adherence to the caloric intake. But I'm curious if people think that higher carb=more water retention=more muscle or higher carb=more insulin=more muscle or higher carb=any mechansim=more muscle.

I feel like it's generally accepted at this point, given that I've read it and listened to it from every major source of info I use (RP, Stronger by Science, BBM, Legion Athletics, and more), that the "optimal" solution is getting the bare minimum amount of high quality fats to facilitate hormone levels, about 0.8-1.5g/lb bw of protein (depending on cut/bulk/age), and filling out every single last calorie with carbs.

Greg and Eric (Stronger by Science) don't have any data to suggest that's also optimal for bulking, but both of them have suggested they think that's the case based off anecdotal evidence (guys they've seen manage to eat insane low fat, high carb diets on a bulk "look" to gain more muscle than average).

That said, "optimal" assumes everything else is kept equal. Most of us (like me) literally can't eat enough on a bulk with only 40-60g of fat (I eat closer to 100g), and there's only so many days I can chug enough water and whey on a cut to get much above 1g/bw of protein.

So as long as your lifts are going up, your measurements are only going up slowly, and you feel fairly "recovered" week to week, you're probably doing it right.

I really don't sweat this stuff anymore. I don't count calories or macros on cuts. I only count total calories in my head on bulks. It's been going as well, and probably better, than counting every single macro and trying to "optimize." As long as I'm gaining less than 1 lb/wk on my bulk and losing more than 1 lb/wk on my cut I know I'm doing it right.

Cool, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about nutrition, but I try to adhere to the stuff SBS and BBM put out there. Sounds like the carbs may offer a benefit. I always forget about RP, so thanks for mentioning them, I'm currently listening to one of their podcasts about massing (they mentioned that they prefer the high carb approach). I stopped tracking last week, and now I'm estimating calories and protein in my head, while just generally going for the starchy options. Also occasionally measuring BW and waist circumference.

[JeanLannes]

Weighing in around 82.5kg and want to move up to 93kg. Only probably is my BF% is already above 20% is the navy method is accurate, but I'm kind of skinny fat; definitely lacking in upper body muscle

[mettkeks]

Weighing in around 82.5kg and want to move up to 93kg. Only probably is my BF% is already above 20% is the navy method is accurate, but I'm kind of skinny fat; definitely lacking in upper body muscle

In that case, gaining all the weight at once will solve all your problems...

SpoilerShow

Bad idea.

[JeanLannes]

Weighing in around 82.5kg and want to move up to 93kg. Only probably is my BF% is already above 20% is the navy method is accurate, but I'm kind of skinny fat; definitely lacking in upper body muscle

In that case, gaining all the weight at once will solve all your problems...

SpoilerShow

Bad idea.

So what should the plan be? I spent like 3 months cutting down to 73kg, now bulking back up to 83kg, I just cut down again?

[Wilhelm]

If you're not doing so already, add in upper body accessories.
You can grow muscle while accumulating less fatigue than piling on excessive volume on your main compound lifts.
Maintain a moderate caloric surplus, and work.

I've read +200 to +500, but i just used the per pound targets from this as a starting point, and dialed it in from there.
https://www.jtsstrength.com/optimal-nut ... rformance/
I had cut down to 180, and was gaining pretty fast on 16 or 17 calories per pound, but now i think i'm needing even more than 18 to move the scale. 18 is the top amount that JTS article lists. It has been a simple and helpful bit of info for me to get a ballpark number to start with.
I think maintenance for me now is 3,500 to 3,600 calories.
This surprised me a little, but i had seen something similar before.

Myself, i track calories daily, and have for going on 4 years now.
I weigh myself every morning after emptying my bladder.

I look at the trend and try to gain steadily, but slowly.

This is my longest concerted bulk to date, and i'm getting tired of it.
The food as well as the work.
But i've been increasing my accessory volume, and do them every bench day, which is 3 times a week.
Got my pullups to 7X7 and dips to 11X6 (repsxsets) and recently added in one arm rows.
I had done up to 9X10 on dips, but dropped sets as i moved up to 10 and 11 rep sets.
I'm hovering my PUs and Dips where they are, and increasing reps set by set on the rows.
I figure i'll increase one of the three exercises at a a time.

I didn't want to do them today, but i had already done the chore of eating, so didn't want to waste that by not working.
Kind of a dreadful synergy.

I've been under 200 lbs for all my meets so far (3), and haven't been over 200 for all my training history these 3 1/2 years.
This time, i'm pretty addicted to the upper body growth i'm getting, and will likely keep bulking until my morning weight is 93kg/205lbs. I dunno, maybe even more if a good amount of that keeps being muscle.

Currently 198 morning weight.

I think Eric Helms has good info on cutting and bulking, giving % of bw to gain over a given period of time.
Many people use apps.

So, that's my ramble.
You really do just have to dial in your rate of gain, and keep working.

[JohnHelton]

@Wilhelm, good ramble. I agree. A very small surplus with a bunch of accessory lifts. Bro stuff for hypertrophy in additional to the main lifts. Gaining at .25% per week or less probably makes sense while eating a lot of protein (1.8g per kg). Bulk for 20 weeks and then cut for 4 weeks at .75%-1% per week. You end up around the same weight but with more muscle and leaner. Repeat over and over until when you cut you are down to ~10% BF. At that point, you have filled out the 83kg class.

[mettkeks]

Weighing in around 82.5kg and want to move up to 93kg. Only probably is my BF% is already above 20% is the navy method is accurate, but I'm kind of skinny fat; definitely lacking in upper body muscle

In that case, gaining all the weight at once will solve all your problems...

SpoilerShow

Bad idea.

So what should the plan be? I spent like 3 months cutting down to 73kg, now bulking back up to 83kg, I just cut down again?

Yes. And bulk back up, and cut back down, and back...

In addition to @Wilhelm's and @JohnHelton's posts:

You can gain all at once, but since every kilo will have a good amount of fat, you'll get pretty fat at some point. If you keep your gaining phases shorter you will gain less fat that you can get rid of in a short and aggressive mini cut.

Instead of bulking for 8 months and then dieting for 4 months, you can gain for 4 months, cut for 4 weeks, gain another 4 months and cut another 4 weeks, and you'll end up at the same point with 2 months left over.

The pro's:
-You'll get as much as possible out of a bulk that you enjoy and ends before it feels like work
-it's easier to cut 4-5kg in 4 weeks than 15kg in 12-16 weeks
-you don't feel like a fatass half the time.
-some hormonal voodoo I don't really understand but is supposed to make it easier to gain muscle if you are leaner.

Cons:
Haven't found any yet.

[JeanLannes]

Weighing in around 82.5kg and want to move up to 93kg. Only probably is my BF% is already above 20% is the navy method is accurate, but I'm kind of skinny fat; definitely lacking in upper body muscle

In that case, gaining all the weight at once will solve all your problems...

SpoilerShow

Bad idea.

So what should the plan be? I spent like 3 months cutting down to 73kg, now bulking back up to 83kg, I just cut down again?

Yes. And bulk back up, and cut back down, and back...

In addition to @Wilhelm's and @JohnHelton's posts:

You can gain all at once, but since every kilo will have a good amount of fat, you'll get pretty fat at some point. If you keep your gaining phases shorter you will gain less fat that you can get rid of in a short and aggressive mini cut.

Instead of bulking for 8 months and then dieting for 4 months, you can gain for 4 months, cut for 4 weeks, gain another 4 months and cut another 4 weeks, and you'll end up at the same point with 2 months left over.

The pro's:
-You'll get as much as possible out of a bulk that you enjoy and ends before it feels like work
-it's easier to cut 4-5kg in 4 weeks than 15kg in 12-16 weeks
-you don't feel like a fatass half the time.
-some hormonal voodoo I don't really understand but is supposed to make it easier to gain muscle if you are leaner.

Cons:
Haven't found any yet.

So you're alternating between very slow bulks and very aggressive cuts?

[mettkeks]

So you're alternating between very slow bulks and very aggressive cuts?

More or less. I did what you planned on doing. I was 76kg at 183cm, somewhat lean but skinny fat and under-muscled with big legs and stick arms. I totally bought into the "eat big to get big" mantra. It worked OK for my LP numbers (well, Squat and DL), but was terrible for my body-composition. Then I kept slowly gaining from 90 to 102. I didn't get much stronger and gained very little muscle.

I got to listen to more bodybuilding focused podcasts (Revive Stronger and The Improvement Season with Steve Hall, 3DMJ, Iron Culture, Renaissance Periodisation etc.) And they typically all work with the same parameters.

Gaining 1kg/month at 80-85Kg is not a slow bulk. Muscle grows very slowly, just eating more and more won't speed up the process beyond a certain point, which seems to be around that 1%BW/month gaining rate. After that it just seems you store more fat.

On the flipside, losing 1% of BW/week is a aggressive cut, but not overly so. The first two weeks are easy and I tend to have lost 3-4% of BW before the 3rd week begins.

Its easy to make a plan with those numbers. I'm currently 84kg, I'd like to get to 80kg, and use 78kg as my cut-off weight for a cut and 83kg for a Bulk.
I did a slow cut for the last 7 weeks (from 92kg) but it starts to get rough and I'll stop next sunday. I'll start another 8-10 week gaining phase to have some fun in the gym again. By then I'll be ready to cut another 5-6kg and get to 80kg.

Then I'll alternate 3-4 month gaining phases with 3-4 week mini cuts where I just lose 1-2kg more than I've gained. That's your classic recomp, but with Actual Bulks instead of slowly getting nowhere.

At that point, I'll be OK with my bodycomposition AFTER a bulk and I am just 3-4 weeks away from being as lean as I want to.

Bulking would then mean, 4 months of gaining (+4kg) and 2 weeks of cutting (-3kg). That means I can Gain 10kg per year, but only be 2kg heavier at the end of the year.