Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

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FredM
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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#21

Post by FredM » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:20 pm

I find cardio pretty helpful to break plateaus. It has less to do with cardio though and more to do with "change." In my experience, one of the best ways to lose a small (but non trivial) amount of weight quickly is to change your workout routine fairly significantly. Your body needs time to adapt and generally be a d***, and in that time, you bust through that plateau and lose some weight. Things that have worked for me:

1. 50/20 deadlifts as my main pull slot. Took my body about 3 weeks to realize what hit it and I lost 5 lbs that stayed off.
2. 2 days of HIIT on a bike. Just 12 min twice a week and I tricked my body into losing 3 lbs in 2 weeks after being stuck for over a month.
3. Incline treadmill almost every day for just 15-20 min. Lost 3 lbs again in 2 weeks before my body adjusted.

Best overall though was when I had my second son and took a month of paternity leave. I was designated primary caregiver of my 2 year old son who wanted to go on walks in the backpack. He weighs 35 lbs. The pack weighs another 5+. Probably walked 1 mile a day + chasing after him in the house and outside. I upped my calories like I wanted a Dad bod and still lost 8 lbs in that month. Only 3 of those ended up being water weight.

So I generally disagree with the "Just restrict more." Frankly it rarely works for me. I get lazier, I get colder, and my body says eff you, I might need this fat in an emergency.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#22

Post by TheGloriousW » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:53 pm

@Allentown

I think eyeballing calories and over estimating expenditure is the crux of the problem. Either method can work. Real calorie counting contains fewer variables.

I know plenty of people that have dumped weight by upping aerobic volume and not eating everything they see. They wouldn't visit this forum though. That method will not work unless you have plenty of time to throw at the problem.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#23

Post by Allentown » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:04 am

TheGloriousW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:53 pm @Allentown

I think eyeballing calories and over estimating expenditure is the crux of the problem. Either method can work. Real calorie counting contains fewer variables.

I know plenty of people that have dumped weight by upping aerobic volume and not eating everything they see. They wouldn't visit this forum though. That method will not work unless you have plenty of time to throw at the problem.
It can, sure. That's how I usually do it. But I usually don't get leaner, and a large majority of people who just up aerobic volume and try reducing intake end up back where they started or heavier.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#24

Post by rjharris » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:07 am

FredM wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:20 pm I find cardio pretty helpful to break plateaus. It has less to do with cardio though and more to do with "change." In my experience, one of the best ways to lose a small (but non trivial) amount of weight quickly is to change your workout routine fairly significantly. Your body needs time to adapt and generally be a d***, and in that time, you bust through that plateau and lose some weight.
...
So I generally disagree with the "Just restrict more." Frankly it rarely works for me. I get lazier, I get colder, and my body says eff you, I might need this fat in an emergency.
I think this is correct. At least, it accords with my experience. I got pretty good results from "just" cutting calories ( dropped like 20 lbs to a shade below 180 over 3 months with calories at something like 1700) but when I repeated the exercise a while later to drop the last ~5 or so pounds I wanted to, the scale wouldn't budge for over a month, and it's not like I was (or am) super lean. Adding in some cardio probably would have helped, and I'm going to do it on my next cut.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#25

Post by TheGloriousW » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:58 am

Allentown wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:04 am
TheGloriousW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:53 pm @Allentown

I think eyeballing calories and over estimating expenditure is the crux of the problem. Either method can work. Real calorie counting contains fewer variables.

I know plenty of people that have dumped weight by upping aerobic volume and not eating everything they see. They wouldn't visit this forum though. That method will not work unless you have plenty of time to throw at the problem.
It can, sure. That's how I usually do it. But I usually don't get leaner, and a large majority of people who just up aerobic volume and try reducing intake end up back where they started or heavier.
For charity I said up volume and nothing about reducing intake. Getting back to old bad habits helps everyone backslide.

Good on anyone who has reached or gotten near their goals (without the aid of pharmaceuticals) regardless of what magic formula they used. It worked for them and they are the proof. It likely didn't happen overnight and was not easy.

I see a lot of people casually posting that they lost 100 pounds. The first thought in my head is always "That's %&%$% awesome!"

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#26

Post by Stoop » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:16 am

Doing more activity is probably better from a muscle retention standpoint than eating less food, but is also way more effort than just eating less food.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#27

Post by FredM » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:55 am

rjharris wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:07 am
FredM wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:20 pm I find cardio pretty helpful to break plateaus. It has less to do with cardio though and more to do with "change." In my experience, one of the best ways to lose a small (but non trivial) amount of weight quickly is to change your workout routine fairly significantly. Your body needs time to adapt and generally be a d***, and in that time, you bust through that plateau and lose some weight.
...
So I generally disagree with the "Just restrict more." Frankly it rarely works for me. I get lazier, I get colder, and my body says eff you, I might need this fat in an emergency.
I think this is correct. At least, it accords with my experience. I got pretty good results from "just" cutting calories ( dropped like 20 lbs to a shade below 180 over 3 months with calories at something like 1700) but when I repeated the exercise a while later to drop the last ~5 or so pounds I wanted to, the scale wouldn't budge for over a month, and it's not like I was (or am) super lean. Adding in some cardio probably would have helped, and I'm going to do it on my next cut.
Yeah. If I'm starting a cut after a long time not cutting, I just restrict calories. That will generally get me 5-10 lbs depending on how heavy I start. If I want to lose more than that I've learned to "trick" my body.

@Allentown restricting via cardio only leads to regression back to where you started in a short time scale, in my experience. If you're serious about losing a lot of weight and keeping it off it doesn't really matter how you do it -- it has to be a sustainable lifestyle change on top of whatever method you choose. Once you spend enough time at a new weight your body adjusts and you probably don't have to track to keep it off. At least I don't. 6 years ago if you told me I'd be 170 lbs I'd assume you were predicting I got cancer. I was 220 and had tried to lose weight multiple times, and like you're suggesting, would lose some, then put it right back on. It took me a while to learn that Qdoba burritos with queso sauce can't be a regular part of my diet. It took me a few more years to find SS/barbells, and a year or two more after that to finally admit I'm not going to brute force my way into my dream body and I'll have to give in and eat fruits, veggies and other "whole foods."

In general, for most people, I think "cutting" to "lose weight" is really thinking about it wrong. Again, you have to think about it in terms of lifestyle changes. How are you going to be a version of yourself that weighs 10 lbs less? Once you get there, how are you going to be a new version of yourself that weights 10 lbs less than that? Etc. The foods I eat, when I eat them, how often I eat them all look totally different at 200 lbs than they did at 220. And totally different at 170 than they did at 185.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#28

Post by Allentown » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:59 am

Just for the record, I don't really know anything about this...

Does anyone actually recommend, for lifters or the general public, simply increasing activity independent of caloric restriction for weight loss, fat loss, body composition, etc?

I don't really swim in weight loss circles, or body building circles, but from the outside looking in and from the couple people I do follow (Jordan, Layne Norton, the occasional EFS article) it has always been about diet first, then increased expenditure second and only second.

In my experience, too, adding in some 1-3 mile walks without any diet changes does exactly 0 for body composition.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#29

Post by Brackish » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:10 am

Allentown wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:59 am Just for the record, I don't really know anything about this...

Does anyone actually recommend, for lifters or the general public, simply increasing activity independent of caloric restriction for weight loss, fat loss, body composition, etc?

I don't really swim in weight loss circles, or body building circles, but from the outside looking in and from the couple people I do follow (Jordan, Layne Norton, the occasional EFS article) it has always been about diet first, then increased expenditure second and only second.

In my experience, too, adding in some 1-3 mile walks without any diet changes does exactly 0 for body composition.
The RP guys (I can find the video if you're really interested.) have said that you kind of have 3 options when it comes to breaking through plateaus when it comes to a weight loss phase. You can cut calories, increase cardio, or do a combination of both.

Quick Google-Fu, walking 3 miles burns anywhere from 210-360 calories. That's not even a single Snicker's bar on the low end and way shy of a doughnut on the high end. That doesn't take into account how adapted you are to that particular activity either. If you're the average desk jockey, then yeah, walking 3 miles a few times a week is going to be a pretty significant increase in your activity level compared to the baseline. But your body WILL adapt to that, and you will burn less and less calories doing that same activity as time goes on. If you have an active job where you're on your feet all day (e.g. nurse, teacher, warehouse worker, etc.), then your body is already pretty well adapted to walking around. So, you're going to get way less bang for your buck by adding in something like walking a few miles a week.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#30

Post by Allentown » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:59 am

But plateaus only happen on a slope.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#31

Post by FredM » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:25 am

Allentown wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:59 am Just for the record, I don't really know anything about this...

Does anyone actually recommend, for lifters or the general public, simply increasing activity independent of caloric restriction for weight loss, fat loss, body composition, etc?

I don't really swim in weight loss circles, or body building circles, but from the outside looking in and from the couple people I do follow (Jordan, Layne Norton, the occasional EFS article) it has always been about diet first, then increased expenditure second and only second.

In my experience, too, adding in some 1-3 mile walks without any diet changes does exactly 0 for body composition.
Since you mention Jordan -- it's nuanced (obviously). I've seen/heard plenty of people at Jordan's level (intelligence/experience), including Jordan, recommend mostly just cardio adjustments. But the context is a fairly obese novice or a guy plateaued on very low calories (like 1800 for an adult male). For the former a lot of people (including Jordan and even Rip lol) recommend starting with simply walking 15-30 min every morning after a black coffee. This is an example of a sustainable lifestyle change. My Dad was stuck at 285 for years before I bought him the Barbell Prescription and all did was go back to the gym on an HLM with the morning walks and he lost 30 lbs in less than a year. He's been stuck since then because he's not making new lifestyle changes -- and he won't skip breakfast or give up beer during the week like I've suggested.

Like @Brackish said, the context matters a lot. If you currently have a desk job and aren't doing any cardio, walking a mile a day at a brisk pace is probably going to help. If you're training 4+ times a week with a HIIT and LISS day, the extra cardio probably isn't going to do much. Although if you're not already using a daily coffee walk as a way to delay your first meal, I'd still recommend it to most people -- as it'll probably work.

Allentown wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:59 am But plateaus only happen on a slope.
Kind of. Like most things in nature it's not really a plateau and the slope isn't constant. Plateaus are more like local minimums and there's a lot of extra energy required to move to the next local minimum. That extra energy can be cardio. Or more calorie restriction than makes sense on paper. Or skipping an entire meal. Or fasting for a weekend. You have to find one that works for you given where you're at right now, which might be different than where you were 10 lbs or 1 year ago.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#32

Post by mbasic » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:47 pm

I think the "walking a couple of miles" is more nuanced then just plugging in "you're burning X amount of calories" into the daily caloric expenditure total or whatever.

Doing it in the morning might help with resetting/establishing circadian rhythms, etc....leads to better sleep, recovery, etc.
After a meal might help with digestion, and/or circulation of nutrients, etc....lowering insulin.
Its relaxing to the mind. etc.

But I'd agree that attacking the problem from the diet end of things first is probably the way to go.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#33

Post by quark » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:46 am

Recent BBM thread on the general subject: https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/forum ... e-and-tdee

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#34

Post by fibula » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:32 am

I know two men in college who achieved major (~100lb) weight loss by tread-milling 3 hours a day (I saw them at the gym with my own eyes) and no special diet changes that they would admit to. One was undergrad and the other a middle aged faculty member. They kept it off for a period of years, at least.

However, I know that I've been able to regain weight rapidly while doing 3 1-hour-long runs a week, once my diet went to shit. I expect though, that I could have eaten whatever I wanted at 3 hours/day of vigorous exercise.

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Re: Calorie restriction vs. cardio for fat loss

#35

Post by aurelius » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:45 am

My general experience, reading, and what has been recommended over the years:

Whatever you will do consistently is the 'best'.

Steady-state cardio (low intensity done for duration) the body readily adapts to. You can create some energy deficit with cardio but over time the amount of calories burned versus base metabolic rate decreases. If you choose this mix it up. Rowing, to stairs, to incline treadmill...whatever. Every 6 weeks. A lot of steady-state cardio can lower base metabolic rate (ever hear about runners bragging about their low beats per minute?). A study comparing the average American to a tribe of indigenous people in Africa showed no significant difference in calories burned adjusted for bodyweight per day.

HIIT is likely best for fat loss (and making you a monster). Hard to adapt to. But can't do a lot of it. I dread HIIT though and I have trouble doing it consistently as a result. Bit of a weenie in my middle age.

I'd add a couple of easy steady-state cardio sessions per week (general health) and 1-2 HIIT sessions per week.

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