Stupid Questions Thread

[FredM]

Don't believe me? Watch some videos of Novikov training squats. He butt winks like a maniac on the ligth sets and it simply stops happening when the weight gets heavy. He's not the only one, just the one that popped into my mind. I have seen quite a few video of guys doing exactly the same thing. It is not a legitimate concern for anyone.

Per usual you've quoted me like you're disagreeing with something I said but I don't think anything you outlined actually disagrees with my points.

I think almost literally any significant form deviation without proper reset/progressive overload is "bad." Is there a high probability it's going to injure you? Maybe not. But there definitely seems to be some correlation between injuries and load mismanagement (non trivial probability).

And giving the literal world's strongest man as an example on why a movement obviously isn't dangerous is pretty asinine, no?

You don't actually lack the mobility to butt wink. Your brain is intelligently protecting your spine from a perceived threat when the weight gets heavy. This can lead to over protection from butt wink without any weights. Butt wink is literally a sign of LACK of mobility. When Novikov starts squatting without it it's not because the weight is so heavy it mashes things together properly. It's because he's warmed up and has more mobility. And the obvious reason why it's a non issue for him is because he's warmed up like that forever so he's properly adapted to the stress of light (heavy ass for the rest of us) weights with PPT. If Novikov spent his entire life never squatting deep enough to produce PPT then tried to squat 4 weeks like that in the 500-700 lb range in working sets, I would bet a lot of money his lower back would feel like shit.

I donot ever see Ben telling people to stop lifting or moving so I generally put him at less quack status than SquatU.

Every time I see him dunk that damn basketball and excitedly pop up into frame, I get the feeling that he's fully aware that his presentation style draws the ire of a measurable portion of the strength community, and is more or less amused by it.

Calling his outfit the "Athletic Truth Group" is some admirable trolling, I think. Dude's a genius in my book, for the presentation alone.

My favorite was casually pulling 475 or whatever for easy reps on the Kabuki trap bar at Mark Bell's gym. I get a kick out of him. I also think he's on point for a lot of shit.Reverse sled pulls. Calf to thigh lunges. Jefferson curls. If you follow Ben's advice the worst that's going to happen is you lose.a little strength and gain a shitton of mobility. If you follow Squat U's advice you might lose 50% of your strength and end up in more pain because you're weak (you might also make a ton of progress and lift without pain again).

[ChasingCurls69]

I'm not really sure how BBM's content consistently gets reduced to "it's all in your head" or then considering the persistence of pain a personal failure, but it makes me skeptical of how the information was actually applied to manage pain during training. And that's not always the fault of the individual either; if we could perfectly apply "Pain in Training: What Do?" every single time on our own, the clinicians would be out of a job.

SquatU is a charlatan online and his content ranges from the basic shit that's agreeable and hard to fuck up gateway drug posts, to the here's 3 specific barriers to entry before you allowed to touch an empty barbell posts. I'm sure in person he'd be much better working with patients despite leaving the internet at large with various neuroses, but his internet content sucks enough that I would never seek him out irl for treatment.

[mgil]

Just chiming in regarding some of what @FredM is saying with regards to hip work.

I did some running/jogging/fast walking last night. A year ago, that would’ve completely wrecked my right hip for a few days along with my lower back.

Found a legit hip doc (orthopedic) and he found my hip mobility was fine (I do have a torn labrum, but it’s not dire) but my right glute was woefully weak. Spent a few months with a specific PT and was doing a lot of glute bridges and other isolation work. Now I’m on my own and hitting the flexors and lower abs as well (thanks ab wheel!).

So while I’m a little beat up today from running last night, I’m definitely still mobile and not in excruciating pain.

I’ve also found my right adductor is a bit weak as well, likely from an injury years back.

All of this has changed my focus on lower body work from strength allowing for mobility to loaded mobility leading to strength. Subtle change in philosophy, but useful for me.

[Hardartery]

Don't believe me? Watch some videos of Novikov training squats. He butt winks like a maniac on the ligth sets and it simply stops happening when the weight gets heavy. He's not the only one, just the one that popped into my mind. I have seen quite a few video of guys doing exactly the same thing. It is not a legitimate concern for anyone.

Per usual you've quoted me like you're disagreeing with something I said but I don't think anything you outlined actually disagrees with my points.

I think almost literally any significant form deviation without proper reset/progressive overload is "bad." Is there a high probability it's going to injure you? Maybe not. But there definitely seems to be some correlation between injuries and load mismanagement (non trivial probability).

And giving the literal world's strongest man as an example on why a movement obviously isn't dangerous is pretty asinine, no?

You don't actually lack the mobility to butt wink. Your brain is intelligently protecting your spine from a perceived threat when the weight gets heavy. This can lead to over protection from butt wink without any weights. Butt wink is literally a sign of LACK of mobility. When Novikov starts squatting without it it's not because the weight is so heavy it mashes things together properly. It's because he's warmed up and has more mobility. And the obvious reason why it's a non issue for him is because he's warmed up like that forever so he's properly adapted to the stress of light (heavy ass for the rest of us) weights with PPT. If Novikov spent his entire life never squatting deep enough to produce PPT then tried to squat 4 weeks like that in the 500-700 lb range in working sets, I would bet a lot of money his lower back would feel like shit.

I donot ever see Ben telling people to stop lifting or moving so I generally put him at less quack status than SquatU.

Every time I see him dunk that damn basketball and excitedly pop up into frame, I get the feeling that he's fully aware that his presentation style draws the ire of a measurable portion of the strength community, and is more or less amused by it.

Calling his outfit the "Athletic Truth Group" is some admirable trolling, I think. Dude's a genius in my book, for the presentation alone.

My favorite was casually pulling 475 or whatever for easy reps on the Kabuki trap bar at Mark Bell's gym. I get a kick out of him. I also think he's on point for a lot of shit.Reverse sled pulls. Calf to thigh lunges. Jefferson curls. If you follow Ben's advice the worst that's going to happen is you lose.a little strength and gain a shitton of mobility. If you follow Squat U's advice you might lose 50% of your strength and end up in more pain because you're weak (you might also make a ton of progress and lift without pain again).

I quoted you only for the Butt Wink line, I couldn't find it mentioned in any of the post above (It's probably there, I just couldn't find it), not for agreement or disagreement. You just happened to have typed it where I read it.
I gave myself as an example in addition to Novikov, and there are a lot of guys that do this I just don't have a ready list of videos to point to off the top of my head/ The whole demonization of Butt Wink has annoyed me for a while. When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears. That's what I see in videos of other guys too. Butt Wink is not going to cause injury to anyone, it can't. It's someone relaxing some muscles at the bottom while they are mechanically leveraged so that nothing else can drop. There is a school of coaching that wants you tight and braced from before you unrack through the end of the lift (Mostly a PL thing), and Butt Wink is just evidence that someone os not staying tight and braced throughout the lift. You can't come off of mechanical bottom before un-winking, so you can't be out of position for the actual upward part of the squat. All that extra blood in the muscles bids everything up and limits the mobility in my experience.
So, no, I'm not disagreeing with what you said, or agreeing, because I was responding to a side point that I didn't think that you really addressed.

[DCR]

When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears.

Did you mean to say that there is a lack of mobility that can cause butt wink at lighter weights, because you’re not yet warm, that stops when you reach heavier weights / are warm?

[lehman906]

When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears.

Did you mean to say that there is a lack of mobility that can cause butt wink at lighter weights, because you’re not yet warm, that stops when you reach heavier weights / are warm?

Yeah, that seems backwards to me. I agree that BW isn't as dangerous as it can be made out to be, but that part confused me as well. As for people not doing it at heavier weights, are we sure they just aren't squatting quite as deep, thus not getting to the Butt Wink Threshold?

By the way, Butt Wink Threshold will be the name of my metalcore-ska fusion band at Lollapalooza.

[Hardartery]

When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears.

Did you mean to say that there is a lack of mobility that can cause butt wink at lighter weights, because you’re not yet warm, that stops when you reach heavier weights / are warm?

Nope. I meant what I said and said what I meant.

[Hardartery]

When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears.

Did you mean to say that there is a lack of mobility that can cause butt wink at lighter weights, because you’re not yet warm, that stops when you reach heavier weights / are warm?

Yeah, that seems backwards to me. I agree that BW isn't as dangerous as it can be made out to be, but that part confused me as well. As for people not doing it at heavier weights, are we sure they just aren't squatting quite as deep, thus not getting to the Butt Wink Threshold?

By the way, Butt Wink Threshold will be the name of my metalcore-ska fusion band at Lollapalooza.

Butt Wink is something that happens after you hit mechanical bottom, you have to be no longer capable of lowering the angle of the thigh because you have hit the mechanical bottom for the thigh. That physical support of the thigh is what allows you to relax enough things to do the wink. Once the muscle pumps up with blood you lose that flexibility at the bottom because you cannot relax those same muscles enough to achieve the wink. It's like doing a Pause Squat. You typically can only do them with a lighter weight, unless you consider getting stuck at the bottom and never coming up a Pause Squat, LOL. You stop being able to disengage at the bottom because of the weight being too high and so you lose that flexibility during the movement. Personally, I find them impossible to do at the end of a session and increasingly difficult with greater glute size.

[AlanMackey]

Wouldn’t pin squats fix butt wink problems?

[mbasic]

@OverheadDeadlifts yeah I get that but I think they have a tendency drastically overcorrect to differentiate themselves from Egypt and now every other youtube internet guru. As a result, I think their advice ends up being pretty harmful to some. As harmful as the SquatU guy or Aasgard? Probably not.

Is Squat University guy a quack? Don't know much about him.

It seems anyone can make a entire profession or business out of the obvious and simple.

Squat U is no more of a quack than Mark Rippetoe. On a lot of stuff ... "they're not wrong"....but I would ignore both.

[DCR]

This:

Butt Wink is something that happens after you hit mechanical bottom, you have to be no longer capable of lowering the angle of the thigh because you have hit the mechanical bottom for the thigh. That physical support of the thigh is what allows you to relax enough things to do the wink. Once the muscle pumps up with blood you lose that flexibility at the bottom because you cannot relax those same muscles enough to achieve the wink.

is the same as this:

Did you mean to say that there is a lack of mobility that can cause butt wink at lighter weights, because you’re not yet warm, that stops when you reach heavier weights / are warm?

but this is reverse of this:

When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears.

I don’t think that the last of those reads the way that you intended, but believe that I’m following.

This confused me, though:

It's like doing a Pause Squat. You typically can only do them with a lighter weight, unless you consider getting stuck at the bottom and never coming up a Pause Squat, LOL. You stop being able to disengage at the bottom because of the weight being too high and so you lose that flexibility during the movement. Personally, I find them impossible to do at the end of a session and increasingly difficult with greater glute size.

Why would one want to disengage at the bottom of a pause squat? I’ve always used them specifically to train staying engaged in the hole.

[Renascent]

I get a kick out of him. I also think he's on point for a lot of shit.Reverse sled pulls. Calf to thigh lunges. Jefferson curls. If you follow Ben's advice the worst that's going to happen is you lose.a little strength and gain a shitton of mobility.

Once I finally muster up the conviction to acquire some sort of squat wedge, I am definitely going to give some of his suggestions a try. Rather than deconstructing my squat for the sake of improvement, I'm more inclined to try the lunges and step-up variations I've seen him touting. Even if my squat numbers don't readily increase, I wholly expect to see improvements that may be less easily quantifiable.

SquatU is a charlatan online and his content ranges from the basic shit that's agreeable and hard to fuck up gateway drug posts, to the here's 3 specific barriers to entry before you allowed to touch an empty barbell posts. I'm sure in person he'd be much better working with patients despite leaving the internet at large with various neuroses, but his internet content sucks enough that I would never seek him out irl for treatment.

Every now and then, I grant his content enough time to glean something useful, but, yeah, there's something about the presentation that I don't care for. I lose patience while waiting for the big reveal in his videos that usually feature some high-level athlete being brought back from the dead via a deck of cards wedged in the crook of the hamstrings or a mouthful of toothpicks leveling out the bar during somebody's post-injury overhead squat.

[Hardartery]

This:

Butt Wink is something that happens after you hit mechanical bottom, you have to be no longer capable of lowering the angle of the thigh because you have hit the mechanical bottom for the thigh. That physical support of the thigh is what allows you to relax enough things to do the wink. Once the muscle pumps up with blood you lose that flexibility at the bottom because you cannot relax those same muscles enough to achieve the wink.

is the same as this:

Did you mean to say that there is a lack of mobility that can cause butt wink at lighter weights, because you’re not yet warm, that stops when you reach heavier weights / are warm?

but this is reverse of this:

When I say it stops because of lack of mobility at heavier weights, I mean just that. I am absolutely nt "Tight" on warmup/ramp up weights, I am all over the place loosening ecerything up. Once I get blood moving and up the weight my ROM changes and so does my ability to do a Butt Wink, my mechanical bottom becomes a little higher and my ability to drop that ass disappears.

I don’t think that the last of those reads the way that you intended, but believe that I’m following.

This confused me, though:

It's like doing a Pause Squat. You typically can only do them with a lighter weight, unless you consider getting stuck at the bottom and never coming up a Pause Squat, LOL. You stop being able to disengage at the bottom because of the weight being too high and so you lose that flexibility during the movement. Personally, I find them impossible to do at the end of a session and increasingly difficult with greater glute size.

Why would one want to disengage at the bottom of a pause squat? I’ve always used them specifically to train staying engaged in the hole.

In a pause Squat you are specifically trying to eliminate the assistance of the eccentric, it eliminates the stretch reflex to some extent in the same way. You may not consciously relax anything, but you a losing that stored energy which also happens to an extent when you relax enough to Butt Wink. I have never seen anyone get any kind of injury, short term or long term from BW, and most guys will stop doing it naturally anyway over time. It's like worrying about the Zombie invasion, it will never actually be a real issue.

[LeanLifts]

Should I at all be concerned that I can't hit one of the hamstring heads in my workouts? I workout at home and don't have a hamstring curl machine so all I do for hamstrings are deadlift variants like RDLs.

[Renascent]

Should I at all be concerned that I can't hit one of the hamstring heads in my workouts? I workout at home and don't have a hamstring curl machine so all I do for hamstrings are deadlift variants like RDLs.

I think it depends on the reason you're concerned about isolating it in the first place. You're more than likely hitting all of your hamstring heads with any movements involving knee flexion to an appreciable degree (ex: tempo squats with an elevated heel). If nothing else, you're probably getting some isometric (or eccentric) work done with something you're already doing.

So, no, I would not necessarily be concerned about a lack of isolated movements for it (I'm assuming you're referring to bicep femoris), but if you're trying to make it grow or dealing with a knee issue, isolated band work is probably better than nothing.

ETA: If you hate yourself and have a kink for soreness, try a regressed version of a Nordic Curl.

[lheugh]

As @Renascent pointed out, it depends on your goals. For hypertrophy purposes, exercises that involve hip extension (e.g., stiff-leg deadlift, good morning) and those that involve knee flexion (e.g., lying leg curl) are viable choices. That said, RDLS seem to bias the semitendinosus, whereas the lying leg curl targets the biceps femoris. Furthermore, there is evidence that knee flexion exercises produce greater activation of the lower compartmental aspect of the hamstrings. As such, optimally (for hypertrophy purposes), you would ideally like to include both functions. Playing around with foot position in both hip extension and knee flexion exercises can bias different heads though. Internal rotation of the foot will bias the semimembranosus and semitendinosus, while external rotation of the foot will bias the biceps femoris.

[Renascent]

Should I at all be concerned that I can't hit one of the hamstring heads in my workouts? I workout at home and don't have a hamstring curl machine so all I do for hamstrings are deadlift variants like RDLs.

For hypertrophy purposes, exercises that involve hip extension (e.g., stiff-leg deadlift, good morning) and those that involve knee flexion (e.g., lying leg curl) are viable choices.

I tried to edit my previous post earlier, but it got eaten and I gave up. I was going to suggest maybe looking into those monkey-foot thingies for something like a lying leg curl setup (with a little hip flexion) if some sort of cable apparatus is not an option for your home gym setup. I've never used them myself, so I can't comment on their quality, but they seem pretty versatile.

Bands would probably be my last choice, but again, much better than nothing. As lheugh said, if hypertrophy is the aim, then both (primary) functions of the hamstrings (hip extension and knee flexion) are what you'd want to emphasize.

Playing around with foot position in both hip extension and knee flexion exercises can bias different heads though. Internal rotation of the foot will bias the semimembranosus and semitendinosus, while external rotation of the foot will bias the biceps femoris.

Yep. My ankles aren't in their best state, so my feet don't always play along with my intentions, but I try to incorporate some slight internal rotation sometimes with good mornings for this exact reason.

[FredM]

Bands would probably be my last choice, but again, much better than nothing.

Huh? Why? Sitting leg curls with bands are pretty legit.

[Renascent]

Bands would probably be my last choice, but again, much better than nothing.

Huh? Why? Sitting leg curls with bands are pretty legit.

Because my post was slightly lazy (I'm multitasking rather poorly today).

Personally, I much prefer seated leg curl variations because they train the muscle(s) at a longer length. He mentioned a home gym setup, and I find that, depending on the configuration, it may be more difficult for some folks to replicate a proper seated variation with whatever equipment might be available.

A lying leg curl might only require a band or anything else that can provide the necessary tension. Same with a seated leg curl, but you still need something to sit on, and possibly a means to ensure that you aren't lifting the thigh of the working leg.

But yeah, I agree with you. Seated versus standing (or lying): flexed hips are probably more desirable if you're working knee flexion for hamstrings.

ETA: Sorry. Preoccupied with some dumb shit today, so my reading comprehension is fucking stellar.

I've nothing against bands at all. You can always do more reps than last time with bands, but if I had to pick between bands and cables, cables win every time. I think the tension with cables is more constant throughout the range of motion, and you can always increase the load.

[FredM]

Bands would probably be my last choice, but again, much better than nothing.

Huh? Why? Sitting leg curls with bands are pretty legit.

Because my post was slightly lazy (I'm multitasking rather poorly today).

1. it may be more difficult for some folks to replicate a proper seated variation with whatever equipment might be available.

2. But yeah, I agree with you. Seated versus standing (or lying): flexed hips are probably more desirable if you're working knee flexion for hamstrings.

3. I think the tension with cables is more constant throughout the range of motion, and you can always increase the load.

1. I think seated leg curls with bands are probably the easiest in a home gym of all possible variations. I find setting up for laying leg curls with bands kind of a hassle. I also have to set them up on my foot properly which takes a non trivial amount of time. They're also slightly harder to ensure consistent loading (ensuring the same band tension) because it's way easier to just but your bench or box on the same line you marked (or just leave your box there forever like I do)

2. Yeah. IMO Seated are superior and better compliment typical home gym training. I feel them more which makes them more beneficial for hypertrophy and "warmup" (mind muscle connection before bigger hamstring exercises)

3. Yeah but where the bands get hard is the ROM you're missing from better stuff. I have a machine but decided to just use bands instead of buying an ankle attachment. It's a lot faster to set up, and I can overload it almost as effectively (2 orange, 2 red, 1 black band gives "15 lb" increments up to >100 lbs) with a lot less time. I just start with tension I can get 10 reps at and add an orange band when I get to 20.