Article: Common Squat Errors (Community Project)

[anelson]

“Sometimes Helpful In Training Block Of Wood” is more fitting.

so many lols.


sometimes helpful in training piece of straight timber?

Or to help @Allentown dodge his profanity filter, "Potentially Of Occasional Purpose Block Of Wood".

[chrisd]

For example, in the video of Jordan squatting, I see no problem. (The bar position is straight over the mid-foot and everything else is dictated by segment lengths and where the hamstrings are in the strongest position to push.) But Chris does.

Hamstrings don't push. This is actually important. Hamstrings close the knee, we don't want this. Hamstrings open the hip, we want this. If you raise the bar by opening the hip, there is not much need for leg drive at the end of a squat.

Imagine this, you fold down with maximum forward lean until you can't go further. Now you lower the hips and dorsiflex at the ankle to allow the hips to rock down until they are just below the top surface of the patella. Now rock the other way, knees come slightly back and the hips have got past the 'sticking point' that would be felt in a 'normal' squat. the hips have been rising slightly faster than the bar and there is a higher sticking point where the glutes, hamstrings and a bunch of other muscles have to work to open the hip. Take it too far and you have a good morning squat, knees opened first and then heave with the back.

I don't say it's wrong or that any other squat variation is right, it's a question of what you want to achieve.

For the sake of hilarity, there is a form check video of 2 count paused squats on the $t$t Facebook page. The squats aren't hilarious, they look fine. The poster wasn't sure if the depth was okay. The first reply is that they are too deep. I'm pretty sure they aren't. The lifter is doing low bar, slowly, so the knee open, hip open, shows up pretty clearly.

[damufunman]

For the sake of hilarity, there is a form check video of 2 count paused squats on the $t$t Facebook page. The squats aren't hilarious, they look fine. The poster wasn't sure if the depth was okay. The first reply is that they are too deep. I'm pretty sure they aren't. The lifter is doing low bar, slowly, so the knee open, hip open, shows up pretty clearly.

I'm curious why you are mentioning this, are you pointing this out to say that hip drahve is silly?

[chrisd]

For the sake of hilarity, there is a form check video of 2 count paused squats on the $t$t Facebook page. The squats aren't hilarious, they look fine. The poster wasn't sure if the depth was okay. The first reply is that they are too deep. I'm pretty sure they aren't. The lifter is doing low bar, slowly, so the knee open, hip open, shows up pretty clearly.

I'm curious why you are mentioning this, are you pointing this out to say that hip drahve is silly?

No, I give it as an example of people with little knowledge taking part in crowd sourced coaching.
There will often be form checks where someone goes deep by flexing the spine, this is usually criticised as 'going too deep, thus making the spine bend'. The lifter in the video I cited does not flex his spine, he is in fact a weightlifter, so has probably been well coached. Nevertheless, someone has seen fit to call him out for 'going too deep '. No justification given except that the tip of the inguinal crease should be 'just below' the patella. I find this example of parroting hilarious.

[damufunman]

For the sake of hilarity, there is a form check video of 2 count paused squats on the $t$t Facebook page. The squats aren't hilarious, they look fine. The poster wasn't sure if the depth was okay. The first reply is that they are too deep. I'm pretty sure they aren't. The lifter is doing low bar, slowly, so the knee open, hip open, shows up pretty clearly.

I'm curious why you are mentioning this, are you pointing this out to say that hip drahve is silly?

No, I give it as an example of people with little knowledge taking part in crowd sourced coaching.
There will often be form checks where someone goes deep by flexing the spine, this is usually criticised as 'going too deep, thus making the spine bend'. The lifter in the video I cited does not flex his spine, he is in fact a weightlifter, so has probably been well coached. Nevertheless, someone has seen fit to call him out for 'going too deep '. No justification given except that the tip of the inguinal crease should be 'just below' the patella. I find this example of parroting hilarious.

Gotcha. Wasn't sure if this was tying back to the knee movement discussion above.

[simonrest]

This whole thread triggers me...

[KDW]

So besides some of the obvious newb mistakes, like raising the chest too hard and losing tension, or driving the hips so hard that the bar ends up forward, having a terrible set up/walk out etc. Here is a fix that was a game changer for me. Assuming you are low bar squatting, or even high bar for some athropometries, it is important and pretty obvious that when you get tight before you descend that you set your spinal position and as your descend, you do your best to NOT change the intervertebral relationships. You want all your motion to come from your hips and your knees. Not your back. You literally want your sacrum to skull to locked in as one unit. It can lean but don't let it bend.

However, there are so many people descending and as they get lower closer to the hole, I see one of two things happening:
1. They start arching harder and increasing their lordotic curve in an attempt to stay more upright. They'll either stop short of depth or if very flexible, hit depth with a hyperlordotic spine
OR
2. They start arching harder which at first increases their lordotic curve but as they approach the hold, it starts to release and they butt wink.

I think this comes from so many people walking around every day with anterior pelvic tilt. They feel like tightening that position would be better to move loads. Well I'm here to tell you. It is not. It is however a good way to aggravate your lower back and SI joint. Some of the cuing comes from Westside Clubs, "ARCH ARCH ARCH".

Anyway, your really want your pelvic position to mirror that of your rib position. Think of your upper body like a can of beer that has been shaken up with a ton of pressure inside. The top is parallel to the bottom. Floor of the rib cage is parallel to pelvic tilt. I do think this is where the terrible cue of nipples to the floor came from but that's because they don't want to say what it really is. Its a hip hinging movement simultaneous with knee flexion with zero spinal movement.

Anyway i think Calgary Barbell does a really good job of explaining the difference here. I used to be guilty of the bad way for a long time. And you can get stronger that way for a while. But stuff really started moving when I changed to the good way, and also my back felt much better.

Skip to around 2:18 on this one:


Skip to around 2:20 on this one:

[KDW]

Also I agree with Bryce that a lot of this lower back control stuff fixes so many problems with bar path, knee slide, etc. And It really simplifies the movement. Stay tight, bend at the hips and knees until depth and drive back up. No back bending movement, no arm movement or elbows flailing all over the place, no head/neck bending movement. Keep all that stuff still while your hips and knees do the work.

[Wilhelm]

Also I agree with Bryce that a lot of this lower back control stuff fixes so many problems with bar path, knee slide, etc. And It really simplifies the movement. Stay tight, bend at the hips and knees until depth and drive back up. No back bending movement, no arm movement or elbows flailing all over the place, no head/neck bending movement. Keep all that stuff still while your hips and knees do the work.

Good stuff, KWD.

At my heavier weights, my hips come up first.
My back stays basically flat, in that i'm not rounding, but my shoulders don't come up precisely with the hips for the first short distance.
This is a 355 PR from two days ago.
I'm going too deep by what several people have said. But i'm so concerned about the refs at my first meet. I so much don't want to be called for depth. Especially not on my first ever comp lift. There is some wink, but it happens late, and a bit of knee slide.
I would believe it if you told me it was more messed up than i think it is.
But i feel like it's pretty good back angle with just that pivot of hips first and shoulders/upper back catching up.

[KDW]

your descent is solid wilhelm. However, I think at the bottom you do lose some tightness and kinda go into your toes and I'm thinking the heeled shoe isn't helping with that. So you are just going to have to think about keeping the weight on your entire foot after you reach depth and don't let it shift forward. Your depth is good and leaves no doubt in the judges mind.

[KDW]

Just saw something else.
Right before your hit depth, it looks like your arch your upper back up. It looks like you lose the relationship of your head to chest....like your stick your chin out right at the last minute. It is small but I bet this also doesn't help the forward shifting. Keep the upper body and all the relationships still and tight. Let the legs and hips do the work.

[Wilhelm]

Thank you. : )

And yes, i absolutely do that.
been doing it on purpose, but i'll change that.
I'm going to focus on those things tomorrow.

Again, thanks so much for taking the time to look and advise.

BTW- You clearly have a great eye to see that through the plates. I'm impressed for sure.

[PatrickDB]

@KDW, that is a wonderful post. I'm going to have to think about it for a while, and try to implement your advice in my own training.

Do you have any thoughts on achieving better bottom position? I don't believe I hyperextend at the top, but I do always slip into lumbar flexion at the bottom and it's really annoying.

Here is a random backoff set from a few weeks ago. I don't have a better video handy, but hopefully the movement at the bottom is easy to see, especially on the later reps.

Even with an unweighted squat in heeled shoes, I can't get to parallel without some amount of flexion. I've been thinking about this for a while and have a theory that the issue might be tight adductors, but I could be totally wrong. In any case I'm not sure how much I believe the "hip socket structure" theory of butt wink, since normal skeletal variation doesn't seem large enough to account for why some people can squat ass to heels while others can't break parallel without flexion.

[mgil]

To @KDW’s point, knee slide is almost always done in conjunction with lumbar flexion/pelvic tilt at the bottom. Setting the lower back and keeping it set usually removes knee slide. That’s why I dislike TUBOW in many cases. It puts the focus on the symptom and moves even further from what the cause is. IOW, how many people are thinking about keeping their lower back frozen while simultaneously tapping their kneecap on a stick?

[DannyP]

“Sometimes Helpful In Training Block Of Wood” is more fitting.

Now all I can think of is Larry David squaring off against the Japanese restauranteur the season he moved to New York :p.

[chrisd]

So I've been looking at a certain Facebook page. A commonly given cue is "Break at the hips and knees together".

Is there any way, if you are standing with a loaded barbell on your back, to flex the knees without simultaneously flexing the hip ?

[KDW]

@PatrickDB
I'd be interested in seeing what your flat shoe squat looks like. Because your heeled squat looks like you really get into your knees at the bottom position. I wonder if the heels are throwing your knees forward right at the bottom. Your back looks good though.

[KDW]

@chrisd
Unless the squat is a sissy squat where the load does not need to be balanced over the midfoot, then you are correct, in any typical barbell back squat or front squat, if you bend your knees, there will be hip flexion assuming the lifter/load system stays in balance over the midfoot. For a lot of people, just cuing the knees and thinking of squatting down (without thinking too much about sticking your butt back or out), cleans up a whole lot of mess. It really does simplify the squat.

Just keep everything from the hip sockets up as one unbreakable unit. All the rotation comes from the hips, knees, and ankles...that's it.

[KyleSchuant]

ChrisD, as KDW said. I would add: you can start the squat with a relatively large amount of hip bend without having much knee bend, but not really vice versa. The "knee slide" and "good morning squat" people, you often find them really shoving their arse back to start it. I think it's a side effect of the way hip drive is taught, and of thinking of tightening the lower back muscles. Tends to happen more in men than women.

So we tell them to shove their knees out first - even though it's basically biomechanically impossible with any significant weight. It's like the "push through your heels" thing, an overcorrection to make the person aware of things, and bring them to where they should be.

[PatrickDB]

@PatrickDB
I'd be interested in seeing what your flat shoe squat looks like. Because your heeled squat looks like you really get into your knees at the bottom position. I wonder if the heels are throwing your knees forward right at the bottom. Your back looks good though.

Great observation! I didn't see that before, but now that I'm looking for it, I can see how my knees "punch" forward on every rep.

I will investigate. I wonder how much of it is the shoes and how much of it is just being aware of midfoot balance and other technique stuff.