Squat and DL stance

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Tommy1507
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Squat and DL stance

#1

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:13 am

Front squat:

I filmed myself from the front doing front squats. I was a little bit shocked how close my stance is. Tried a wider stance and toes a little bit more out, which felt pretty awkward to me. I think i am just used to standing so close. But a little bit wider looks so much better and creates some space where my hip and legs can move to.

Close and wider stance


Back squat:

For my back squats i use the same narrow stance like on front squats. I have read that a shoulder width stance is a good place to start. This would be around 43cm for me. I have put some markers on the floor which are around 40cm apart. Then i tried to stand much wider than normal and with the feet pointed more outward. Heels 40cm apart seems very wide for me and not doable atm. So on the following video i think i am around 36-37cm wide. I feel weaker than with a narrow stand, but it looks much better. I think i'll stick with it. What would you say?
Another thing i notice is that the bar is noticeably lower on my left side. I don't know if that's a bad habit or has some deeper roots.

Working up to 160kg and focusing on a wider stance.


Deadlift:

I also used to deadlift very narrow. Here i am doing RDL, where i have the same stance like on DLs. The close stance is around 16cm heels apart. The "wide" is around 24cm. My hips width should be around 27cm. Thise would be a better fit as most authorities say hip width is a good place to start. It looks also much better i think. Of course it still feels odd, cause it's new.

Close and wider stance


I had some lower back pain and also groin pain on the right side which i think was caused by squatting and deadlifting. I had the stuoid idea that i need to be upright as possible and put a lot of weight on my heels. Now i have stopped that actively and focused on pushing away from the midfoot. I think this was causing the pain and not it's much better. MRT was also ok.

Would be very happy to get some input from you. Anything that looks odd or can be optimized.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#2

Post by Hardartery » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:12 am

You have a pronounced hip shift on the squats. You are leaning the bar down on the left side because you are not engaging the right posterior chain and pushing the load onto the left side. The actual stance width changes are hair splitting but may be pushing the load a little more onto the glutes and off of the left groin muscle. RDL's aren't meant to be done wide stance, it's a little counterproductive to the point of the exercise. If anything, you might experiment with trying them with the heels actually touching and a slight foot flare. Try some Lunges to balance the muscles and learn some activation movements for warmup - like Airplanes or something. All of the stances were super narrow, but that isn't bad or good and you do whatever width is more comfortable. A loss of strength short term to adjust to a better stance is minor compared to the gain from working the better stance over time.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#3

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:49 am

It would make sense that i push more through the left leg, because i am still not 100% recovered on the right side or maybe developed that hip shift while i was more injuried and couldn't push fully through the right leg.
But maybe my right sided pain comes from the hip shift? Egg or chicken. But i have also heard several times that you don't necessarily to correct it if doesn't hurt. And that many high level squatters don't squat perfectly symmetrically.
I notice that the bar is uneven right from unracking and when standing still between reps.

I have ever done RDLs with the same stance like regular DL. So my question is really more geared to the stance for DL, where the load tends tonbe higher.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#4

Post by Hardartery » Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:15 am

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:49 am It would make sense that i push more through the left leg, because i am still not 100% recovered on the right side or maybe developed that hip shift while i was more injuried and couldn't push fully through the right leg.
But maybe my right sided pain comes from the hip shift? Egg or chicken. But i have also heard several times that you don't necessarily to correct it if doesn't hurt. And that many high level squatters don't squat perfectly symmetrically.
I notice that the bar is uneven right from unracking and when standing still between reps.

I have ever done RDLs with the same stance like regular DL. So my question is really more geared to the stance for DL, where the load tends tonbe higher.
You need to fix the hip issue, it's significant and will hurt you at some point, as in cause an injury. It's too pronounced. You need to rehab the right side.
Also, I know there's a huge push to be as narrow as possible on Conventional DL for technical reasons. Don't worry about it, use the width that feels comfortable. Some guys are just a little wider, and the pull can be significantly better a little wider. Narrow can cause balance issues, and you are already trying to do everything with one leg so it's probably better to go wider.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#5

Post by mgil » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:06 pm

I had less of a hip shift, due to my right glute being weak, and likely ended up with a torn labrum and other residual injuries as a result.

@Tommy1507, I think your stance is fine. I agree with @Hardartery that it’s a good time to start adding in some work that hits the glutes directly. I’d recommend clamshells, glute bridges (one side at a time), and other hip extension work.

Squat range and mobility looks fine otherwise.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#6

Post by cole » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:38 pm

Ive also thought about this myself, as i tend to feel better with a narrow stance on both squat and DL, however a wider, more toes out knees out stance looks better, and theoretically utilizes more muscle mass. i think moderation is the key here. dont try to be a lifter that you arent, but rather be the strongest version of the lifter you are, with some technique clean ups along the way.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#7

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:59 pm

I am sure sure i will never be a wide squatter. But i think i will stick with a little bit wider than my extreme narrow stances on SQ and DL for some weeks and see how it goes.



@mgil I will try some glute work. Although i must say that i am little bit sceptical, that it will change that much. But i hope it and give it try. But as i mentioned the orthopedic said everything was fine, MRT was normal and some work with a PT didn't seem to help much. My next stop would be an osteopath, which is coverd by insurance.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#8

Post by dw » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:28 pm

I don't understand the hip shift part...that's the tendency for his right side to ascend faster than his left?

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#9

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:46 pm

dw wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:28 pm I don't understand the hip shift part...that's the tendency for his right side to ascend faster than his left?
I am also not sure if i have understood that. If my left leg was stronger and did more work than my right (hurt and not fully recovered) leg. Should not the left right ascend faster?
The bar is deeper on the left side right from unracking. I don't know how you can conclude that is has to do something with the hip shift?

By the way thanks for all the responses. I just want to try to understand it fully

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#10

Post by Hardartery » Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:15 pm

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:46 pm
dw wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:28 pm I don't understand the hip shift part...that's the tendency for his right side to ascend faster than his left?
I am also not sure if i have understood that. If my left leg was stronger and did more work than my right (hurt and not fully recovered) leg. Should not the left right ascend faster?
The bar is deeper on the left side right from unracking. I don't know how you can conclude that is has to do something with the hip shift?

By the way thanks for all the responses. I just want to try to understand it fully
In the video you shift the weight to the left side and lead with the right side on the ascent, even doing a big side shift on a couple coming out of the hole. The lower side is taking the brunt of the load. Guys do the same thing on BP, the weak side comes up first and they have an uneven extension because that shifts load to the strong side. It's a reflex action by your body. You get rid of it on Bench by using DB's for a few blocks.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#11

Post by FredM » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:53 pm

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:59 pm I am sure sure i will never be a wide squatter. But i think i will stick with a little bit wider than my extreme narrow stances on SQ and DL for some weeks and see how it goes.



@mgil I will try some glute work. Although i must say that i am little bit sceptical, that it will change that much. But i hope it and give it try. But as i mentioned the orthopedic said everything was fine, MRT was normal and some work with a PT didn't seem to help much. My next stop would be an osteopath, which is coverd by insurance.
Try doing high-ish step ups or reverse lunges and really focus on not cheating. Then try single leg hip thrusts. I bet you'll find your strong leg is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than your weak leg. E.G I could do 5 reps with 75 lbs initially with reverse lunges or about 6 bw high step ups (20") with my left leg but 12+ with my right leg on either. I could barely get 8 bw hip thrusts with my left but 15+ with my right. I just started doing left leg only, eventually transitioning to left leg, half reps right leg, and my shift to right leg in really deep squats has all but disappeared.

Not sure why you'd be skeptical. You definitely have a weak side and strength acquisition through progressive overload is a pretty well established phenomenon.

The BBM Training Nihilism most people here subscribe to only states there's not enough evidence to prove you'll definitely get injured. If you want to stay in their safe space just call the single leg work "GPP" and do it because it will allow you to move heavy weights with more consistent form.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#12

Post by Tommy1507 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:17 pm

FredM wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:53 pm
Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:59 pm I am sure sure i will never be a wide squatter. But i think i will stick with a little bit wider than my extreme narrow stances on SQ and DL for some weeks and see how it goes.



@mgil I will try some glute work. Although i must say that i am little bit sceptical, that it will change that much. But i hope it and give it try. But as i mentioned the orthopedic said everything was fine, MRT was normal and some work with a PT didn't seem to help much. My next stop would be an osteopath, which is coverd by insurance.
Try doing high-ish step ups or reverse lunges and really focus on not cheating. Then try single leg hip thrusts. I bet you'll find your strong leg is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than your weak leg. E.G I could do 5 reps with 75 lbs initially with reverse lunges or about 6 bw high step ups (20") with my left leg but 12+ with my right leg on either. I could barely get 8 bw hip thrusts with my left but 15+ with my right. I just started doing left leg only, eventually transitioning to left leg, half reps right leg, and my shift to right leg in really deep squats has all but disappeared.

Not sure why you'd be skeptical. You definitely have a weak side and strength acquisition through progressive overload is a pretty well established phenomenon.

The BBM Training Nihilism most people here subscribe to only states there's not enough evidence to prove you'll definitely get injured. If you want to stay in their safe space just call the single leg work "GPP" and do it because it will allow you to move heavy weights with more consistent form.
I am just sceptical that some bodyweight activation drills will fix it. But i'll try them. I am sure heavier single-leg work can totally help. But when i think about it, i tried that before. The left side works like charme. Tried lunges, step ups and split squats. But the right side hurts and just feels odd, so i always had to stop. I now realize that i need to fix my right side like @hardartery mentioned. I just hoped it will get away on its own and just train through it. I did not thought that it had this big impact

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#13

Post by mgil » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:41 am

I thought the idea of “glute amnesia” or whatever was stupid, until I was making the rounds with hip specialists (orthopedics) about a torn hip labrum. I had X-rays, MRIs, cortisone shots, etc. trying to resolve some really bad pain deep in the joint. Finally got to a good osteopath orthopedic who put me on the table and checked out my mobility in the joint along with strength from every angle. He then referred me to a specific PT for work.

I found out my right glute was super weak and my right hip flexor was severely pissed off. Did about three months of PT. I’m still doing some of those exercises now 9 months later. First and foremost, most of my hip pain is resolved. Secondly, squat depth without pain has returned. Thirdly, strength is finally coming back.

My case was likely a bit more extreme, as some of these docs were right into the conversation about hip replacement. All because my right buttcheek wasn’t doing enough work. Wild times.

Anyhow, once we get to a certain level of strength, it’s okay to do all of this little work and really dial in form. We have to remind ourselves that this lifting stuff is to improve quality of life well down the road, not make things worse through injury.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#14

Post by FredM » Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:16 am

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:17 pm
I am just sceptical that some bodyweight activation drills will fix it. But i'll try them. I am sure heavier single-leg work can totally help. But when i think about it, i tried that before. The left side works like charme. Tried lunges, step ups and split squats. But the right side hurts and just feels odd, so i always had to stop. I now realize that i need to fix my right side like @hardartery mentioned. I just hoped it will get away on its own and just train through it. I did not thought that it had this big impact
Got it. You might want to try lighter than you'd think. I just LP'd my left side from the bar (reverse lunges). I literally caught myself cheating even there. My left was SOOOO much weaker so I had to start way lighter than made logical sense to me. But now I'm up to 95 lbs for sets of 8 and my left side is almost at parity. Took 6 weeks. I'd start with a weight on your weak side that doesn't feel like crap.


mgil wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:41 am
I found out my right glute was super weak and my right hip flexor was severely pissed off.
This was my experience just the opposite. I probably could have gone to a good PT and seen faster results but I figured it out on my own and just dealt with the pain for months. I wasn't in as bad of a spot as you were but yeah, the asymmetrical over active/tight hip flexor + glute weakness sucks hard.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#15

Post by mgil » Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:31 am

@FredM, likely because I had a torn labrum in the same hip, I was circling around the same problem based on the docs I’d been seeing. I was happy to just refuse the notion I needed a metal hip and finally found someone who agreed.

The PT did some pressure point work on the abdominal insertion of the hip flexor on the first session. It was the first time, in years, where I was able to drive a car for more than 15 minutes without pain. Crazy.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#16

Post by Hardartery » Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:56 am

Tommy1507 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:17 pm
I am just sceptical that some bodyweight activation drills will fix it. But i'll try them. I am sure heavier single-leg work can totally help. But when i think about it, i tried that before. The left side works like charme. Tried lunges, step ups and split squats. But the right side hurts and just feels odd, so i always had to stop. I now realize that i need to fix my right side like @hardartery mentioned. I just hoped it will get away on its own and just train through it. I did not thought that it had this big impact
As noted by @Mgil (The @ thing doesn't seem to be working) the "Amnesia" thing happens. Not to everyone, not in every case, but particularly when you've been injured it tends to happen. Your body adapts automatically to the injury and doesn't ubadapt on it's own necessarily. All the drills do is relearn the patterns so that you go back to normal. You can go forever in regular life with no major issues most of the time and not realize you are screwed up until the uneven wear catches up to you in old age and kills your mobility. You just want the nerves to start firing again, and that doesn't require weight, just specific practice. Hopefully not forever. Take a look at any more recent video showing Licis lifting or competing and you will see him doing some drills in the warmup. This is 100% because of injuries he suffered, in particular getting hit by a car while on his bicycle 2 or 3 tears ago not long after he won WSM. His hip hasn't worked right since.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#17

Post by DCR » Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:52 pm

Broscience and N=1 incoming...

@Tommy1507, your squat stance width isn't anything that I'd describe as even remotely extreme, or even particularly narrow for a non-equipped lifter. I wouldn't change it, both because there's no reason to do so and also because I think it will be actively unhelpful regarding your hip shift.

I too had a hip shift problem after an injury on one side, and with it came the uneven bar problem. My hip shift was a particular motherfucker in that it began as a shift left, due to blowing my right knee out / resulting right leg atrophy, and later became equally likely to go either way, as my right leg remained weak but my left hip developed awful pain, presumably due to over-reliance on that side. I would have descents in which I'd shift left, then right, then back left again by the time I hit the hole. The knee injury was years ago and I've only recently managed to fix the hip shift and start to see my legs once again be basically the same size.

I am not discouraging you from trying any of the more targeted and/or unilateral movements and ideas that others have suggested above. That said, I fixed my hip shift during squatting (which also showed up in DLs, although I've not done them in a long time, and sometimes even in RDLs), by squatting. What I did and would recommend as an option for you is, first for foremost, commit to every single fucking rep being perfect from now on. No bad reps. That is going to mean less weight and staying well away from failure, because it will require a more controlled movement, especially on the descent. Although perhaps not necessary, I strongly recommend instituting a full pause in the hole.

Regarding form: It's great that you're no longer squatting through your heels or trying to be as upright as possible. However, you still look pretty upright to me, and as someone who also squatted through his heels forever, I suspect that you may not entirely have broken the habit and, at the very least, I'd bet that your toes are popping up on some or even most of those reps. What works for me is, at the top of the rep, before you begin the descent, permit yourself to lean forward about two inches. Not at your waist - I'm talking let your whole body, in a straight line, come forward closer to your toes. (H/t Max Aita on a lot of this.) Let the weight settle over midfoot, and then push your big toes into the floor, hard. Don't worry about the "tripod" thing and what your little toes are doing. Concentrate only on jamming your big toes down and keeping them there, for the entire rep. Initiate the rep by squeezing the fuck out of your quads and letting yourself descend by slightly opening your hips, thereby slightly spreading your legs. Think of it, again though, as opening your hips, initiating up in your groin (or your taint, per Coan), not pushing your knees out. As you descend, still squeezing the fuck out of your quads, push your ass back as far as possible. The bottom of the rep is where your hamstrings are fully taut and will not let you descend any further. Do not go down further by letting your hamstrings slack, at all. The most important thing is to do the two together - you're not just in your quads, which will result in loose hamstrings, and you're not just pushing your ass back, which will put you on your heels and turn into a good morning squat. You are squeezing your quads and opening your hips slightly, while pushing your ass back and lengthening your hamstrings. In the hole, your big toes still are pressing down, your quads still are squeezing, and your hamstrings are as taut as they can be. Pause if you wish, and let yourself feel all of that. Again I strongly recommend doing so. Ascend hard, pushing through mid-foot and trying to keep your knees in front of you and your hips back as long as possible.

In my bro view, it is the simultaneous, intentional use of your quads and hamstrings, together, that holds the hips in place. Stop squeezing the quads... hip shift. Let your hamstrings slack... hip shift. Release your big toes and end up back on your heels, and one or both of those things will happen... hip shift.

Try it and let me know what you think.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#18

Post by Tommy1507 » Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:43 am

Thanks for this long reply @DCR Definitley got me thinking and i also have a long answer.

I started training exactly 3 years a ago. Squatted 3 times per week and worked up to 180kg. I always had the problem that my heels would not stay on the floor. I think one problem was my very narrow stance. Internet told me to just get some weightlifting shoes. They feel weird and I am still not sure if it was the “right” choice, as using chucks never felt too bad. But I just sticked to weightlifting shoes.
I think I am doing kind of a high bar squat, maybe the bar sits a little bit deeper, but I wouldn’t call it lowbar, if that evens matter. Maybe I have understood some cues wrong, but what I got out of most tutorials for the high bar squat was: Let the knees travel forward, stay as upright as you can and let the hips move down and not back. As you would try to let your balls touch your feet. While doing that push your knees out, so your hips have a place to go.
Probably some of those cues work detrimental for me. I am not the tallest person, but definitely not build for squats with extremely short legs or so like you see in chinese weightlifters. My moste upright posture is probably angled a good bit forward.
Also pushing my knees aggressively out is not good, As I tend to let my pelvis rotate posterior and let it come forwards, just for the sake of letting my knees get more outwards. This also pushes the weight on my heels and and destroy my pelvis position.
Today I just focused on two cues instead. Lean a little bit forward, find your big toes, let the weight there on the whole squat and let the hip move back as it wants to. I didn’t move my ass as far back as possible, just where it wants to go and didn’t mind if my torso is angled more to front than it was before. And those squats felt very good. And I think they don’t look bad. It also felt a lot more natural standing a bit wider than I was used to. I really think I should not think about pushing my knees out. It happened on only one or two reps and I immediately felt it on my right groin. Maybe this is also causing the pain.

Yesterday evening I have spent some time watching stuff from Juggernaut and Max Aita about squats. I have recognized many tips that you wrote. But I never heard pushing your as or hips as back as possible. Where did you get that from?

Squats and Front Squats from today: Side and front view.
Optimized for watching on smartphones :roll:


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Re: Squat and DL stance

#19

Post by mgil » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:52 am

@Tommy1507, those squats look clean. If you’re feeling like you’re having a problem with dorsiflexion, it’s possibly because you are burying your back squats. If you were wanting to push your squat weight higher, then cutting those off a little shallower and forcing some extra hamstring tension by shoving your butt backwards would work.

However, for general strength and mobility, I’d just train the motion you have and take the small gains as they come provided you’re accumulating stress frequently enough to get hypertrophy gains.

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Re: Squat and DL stance

#20

Post by DCR » Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:55 pm

@Tommy1507, the hip shift popped up on the last rep of the back squats, but those generally look much better and you look comfortable.
Tommy1507 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:43 am Internet told me to just get some weightlifting shoes. They feel weird and I am still not sure if it was the “right” choice, as using chucks never felt too bad. But I just sticked to weightlifting shoes.
I squat in Vans. I don’t need or like a raised heel and they’re nice and flat. I wore chucks forever but the toe sorta comes up and that bothered me for obvious reasons, given the above.
Tommy1507 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:43 am Also pushing my knees aggressively out is not good, As I tend to let my pelvis rotate posterior and let it come forwards, just for the sake of letting my knees get more outwards. This also pushes the weight on my heels and and destroy my pelvis position.
I called that cue out specifically because I hate it. I can understand why it might become more useful with a wider stance, but where you are (and I am) it’s not at all helpful and I think can be actively harmful.
Tommy1507 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:43 am
And those squats felt very good. And I think they don’t look bad.
Great! Glad to hear it. They sure don’t look bad.
Tommy1507 wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:43 am Yesterday evening I have spent some time watching stuff from Juggernaut and Max Aita about squats. I have recognized many tips that you wrote. But I never heard pushing your as or hips as back as possible. Where did you get that from?
Max doesn’t advocate it (that I’ve ever seen), and CWS has written specifically otherwise. I’m not very strong and have no business differing with them on a damn thing, but hear me out. At one point, cueing to sit back back! BACK! was all the rage. Then folks realized that that was a good geared powelifting cue but a bad cue for a raw lifter, that caused dudes to initate the descent with hips only and end up all the fuck the way back on their heels. That was my own experience too - I sat back for most of my lifting career and as I mentioned in my initial post, also pushed through my heels.

The resulting overcorrection was telling raw lifters to forget about sitting back and to think of descending down. That may work well for some or even most people (especially for front or high bar), but in my experience it was no good with a hip shift issue. For me to keep my hips in place, I need as much tension in as many places as I can get, and going straight down and letting my hamstrings slack, at all, is hugely unhelpful. Returning to my old sit back style, but only after initiating the descent by squeezing my quads and slightly opening my hips, turned out to be the trick I needed. Also, as @mgil noted, doing so will cut the bottom a bit, which is helpful to me both because some of my worst hip shifting occurred deep in the hole, and also because I really like pause squats and doing those ass to grass is murder on the knees (ask me how I know).

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