Abs, I guess

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Renascent
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Re: Abs, I guess

#21

Post by Renascent » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:23 am

asdf wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:13 pm
Renascent wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:38 am
mbasic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:34 am
broseph wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:37 am I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.
please, go on ....
Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).
I often forget that many (most?) people around here don't snatch and clean & jerk. For those who don't, yeah, I could see snatch-grip high-pulls developing traps. But why not just snatch??
Back then, I lifted at a rundown, under-equipped gym, so I didn't have access to bumpers or platforms. The upside to the place was that it was in a "bad area," so I rarely had to share equipment or wait for an open bench or rack.

Nowadays, I mostly have traps covered with a myriad of bodybuilding movements, or regressions of weightlifting auxiliary stuff.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#22

Post by broseph » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:37 am

asdf wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:13 pm
Renascent wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:38 am
mbasic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:34 am
broseph wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:37 am I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.
please, go on ....
Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).
I often forget that many (most?) people around here don't snatch and clean & jerk. For those who don't, yeah, I could see snatch-grip high-pulls developing traps. But why not just snatch??

1. Getting under the bar requires a lot skill and mobility and super sucks if you’re already strong but not skilled and mobile.

2. I think you’re supposed to use a fairly heavy weight; like sets of 5 SGHP with a snatch 1RM weight (these numbers are 100% pulled out of my ass, but it [pulling things out of my ass] feels right)

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Renascent
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Re: Abs, I guess

#23

Post by Renascent » Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:43 am

broseph wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:37 am
asdf wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:13 pm
Renascent wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:38 am
mbasic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:34 am
broseph wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:37 am I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.
please, go on ....
Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).
I often forget that many (most?) people around here don't snatch and clean & jerk. For those who don't, yeah, I could see snatch-grip high-pulls developing traps. But why not just snatch??

1. Getting under the bar requires a lot skill and mobility and super sucks if you’re already strong but not skilled and mobile.
Yep.

I might've done all right with learning to snatch back then if I had access to appropriate equipment, but my reason (at the time) for incorporating snatch-grip high pulls into my routine was to alleviate some TOS-like symptoms.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#24

Post by Skander » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:50 am

Renascent wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:38 am
mbasic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:34 am
broseph wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:37 am I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.
please, go on ....
Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).
Cut to a shot of me and @damufunman wondering when we'll get asked if we lift weights...

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Re: Abs, I guess

#25

Post by augeleven » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:30 am

asdf wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:13 pm. But why not just snatch??
8 foot ceilings.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#26

Post by asdf » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:10 am

Low ceilings, no bumpers, limited mobility, low skill. Got it!

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Re: Abs, I guess

#27

Post by augeleven » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:23 am

asdf wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:10 am Low ceilings, no bumpers, limited mobility, low skill. Got it!
I have bumpers, and I haven’t let low skill or limited mobility stop me with other things.
Now I’m thinking of trying power clean again…

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Re: Abs, I guess

#28

Post by asdf » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:42 am

augeleven wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:23 am I’m thinking of trying power clean again…
Right on! Also, you can snatch if you catch the bar in a full squat. You just won't be able to stand up.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#29

Post by CaptainAwesome » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:56 am

It did seem like my traps looked a little more like they "popped" when I had the power versions of the olympic lifts in my programming ala the Aasgard stuff. But I never could do them very heavy. I liked Snatches more than cleans simply because of my arm proportions, but never even managed to do them with a 135 load. Mostly it seemed trap size comes from deadlifting for me, though.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#30

Post by Hardartery » Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:33 pm

augeleven wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:23 am
asdf wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:10 am Low ceilings, no bumpers, limited mobility, low skill. Got it!
I have bumpers, and I haven’t let low skill or limited mobility stop me with other things.
Now I’m thinking of trying power clean again…
Have you tried Seated DB Cleans or Seated DB Snatches?

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Re: Abs, I guess

#31

Post by Renascent » Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:49 pm

asdf wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:10 am Low ceilings, no bumpers, limited mobility, low skill.
Yeah, pretty much.

What you got against high pulls?

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Re: Abs, I guess

#32

Post by sklunk » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:40 pm

Renascent wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:43 am my reason (at the time) for incorporating snatch-grip high pulls into my routine was to alleviate some TOS-like symptoms.
Did it work?

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Re: Abs, I guess

#33

Post by asdf » Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:04 pm

Renascent wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:49 pm What you got against high pulls?
Nothing. I just prefer to snatch.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#34

Post by Renascent » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:49 pm

sklunk wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:40 pm
Renascent wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:43 am my reason (at the time) for incorporating snatch-grip high pulls into my routine was to alleviate some TOS-like symptoms.
Did it work?
Short answer: Yeah, it seemed to, within about two weeks. I'd just finished a volume-heavy run on the bench press, which culminated with a 285 LB PR. Later that same night, every time I breathed, it like fire running down both arms.

Long answer: I'll never know for sure if the high pulls fixed anything, or if some change in bench press programming after said run lowered stress on the upper body musculature. Left shoulder still sits more forward than the right, which has to be accounted for during nearly all press movements.

I'd also been dealing with piriformis syndrome for about three months prior when both issues came to a head. It's only been within the past two years that I finally considered both issues might've been related (pelvic torsion), but that's probably a story for another thread.

Shortly before the C19 pandemic and the subsequent creation of my home gym, I went on a spirited tear with oblique strengthening, which consisted of cable chop variations and landmine rainbows. Neither helped the overarching issue, but my obliques and serratus anterior never looked better.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#35

Post by SnakePlissken » Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:31 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 12:33 am
SnakePlissken wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:22 pm I think the "they're already trained indirectly" debate will never be solved. That said, I've actually been thinking that my abs are a big piece holding me back from getting a heavier squat because for a while now I've felt like my legs have the power in them, but my torso doesn't and my back has been feeling stout the last year. Doing my own experiment where I'm going to aim to do some direct ab work a few times a week.
I am also convinced that increasing torso strength is very important. And that making your abs larger through directed hypertrophy work is one of the keys to it. If you look at the Westside era lifters they did a great amount of direct abs/lower back work. Their torsos were pretty strong, I think. I'm curious to know if your experiment will work.
So I've been doing direct ab work for just 3 weeks and can already feel a difference. I've been doing bracing work on Mondays and dynamic work on Fridays (just planks and situps). It's been much easier to not have to focus on contracting abs on things like Front Squats and Deads which has helped me focus more on other cues like pushing my knees forward and out on squats. The fact that the direct ab work takes about 4-6 minutes at the end of 2 workouts and has made that much of a difference is great to me. I'll be interested to see how my LB squat does when I eventually return to doing them.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#36

Post by mbasic » Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:02 pm

Renascent wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:49 pm
asdf wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:10 am Low ceilings, no bumpers, limited mobility, low skill.
Yeah, pretty much.

What you got against high pulls?
Snatch high pulls (from the floor) better than Snatch or Power snatch in a lot of situations.

Like some say, there might actually be some hypertrophic response from pulls in the upper body.
I can do a shit ton more quality reps with SNHP than I could full snatches.....and with just a tiny bit more weight.
And pull will be cleaner, and more pure.
SNHP beats you up less.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#37

Post by ChasingCurls69 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:03 pm

Skander wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:50 am
Renascent wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:38 am
mbasic wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:34 am
broseph wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:37 am I refuse to believe my apparent total body deflation after a couple weeks of not lifting is all in my head. The long pump also explains how certain exercises can have apparent immediate effects on the physique- snatch grip high pulls come to mind.
please, go on ....
Heh.

I was finally able to build a comfortable "shelf" for back squats after a few sessions that included these.

They were also responsible for people finally asking if Iifted weights (without me being shirtless).
Cut to a shot of me and @damufunman wondering when we'll get asked if we lift weights...
The meme of the dude standing in the corner at a party by himself, but he's thinking to himself "They don't even know I can deadlift 600+lbs" is how this makes me feel.

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: Abs, I guess

#38

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:13 am

SnakePlissken wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:31 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 12:33 am
SnakePlissken wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:22 pm I think the "they're already trained indirectly" debate will never be solved. That said, I've actually been thinking that my abs are a big piece holding me back from getting a heavier squat because for a while now I've felt like my legs have the power in them, but my torso doesn't and my back has been feeling stout the last year. Doing my own experiment where I'm going to aim to do some direct ab work a few times a week.
I am also convinced that increasing torso strength is very important. And that making your abs larger through directed hypertrophy work is one of the keys to it. If you look at the Westside era lifters they did a great amount of direct abs/lower back work. Their torsos were pretty strong, I think. I'm curious to know if your experiment will work.
So I've been doing direct ab work for just 3 weeks and can already feel a difference. I've been doing bracing work on Mondays and dynamic work on Fridays (just planks and situps). It's been much easier to not have to focus on contracting abs on things like Front Squats and Deads which has helped me focus more on other cues like pushing my knees forward and out on squats. The fact that the direct ab work takes about 4-6 minutes at the end of 2 workouts and has made that much of a difference is great to me. I'll be interested to see how my LB squat does when I eventually return to doing them.
That's good stuff. I've also been a bit more serious about my abs training recently and it seems to correlate with increases in my (high bar) squat and my (conventional) deadlift. Lots of ab wheels and machine crunches as far as I am concerned. And yeah I agree that ab work is very "cheap": does not really impact recovery, and it's quick to do at the end of a session.

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Re: Abs, I guess

#39

Post by mbasic » Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:34 am

I think "abs made in the kitchen" mentality is flawed when I person gives up on direct ab/core work....because they think there's just too much overlying fat .... and/or they are getting enough abs/core work from squats/deads/compound movements (what a joke is really what I want to say).

I see results lately, and I have not lost THAT much bodyfat. I think hypertrophy of that ab region is important.
There are other tidd-bits in this thread about the "long pump", and a certain residual tightness/tension our muscles might 'carry' around for days (a week perhaps) after a workout.

I also think, stuff like avoiding oblique work, and/or avoiding general ab hypertrophy because its "going to make ur waist thicc and ruin ur V-taper" is bad advice for 98% of trainees.

I have been doing a lot of torso-twist and loaded side bends (and ab stuff in general), I think that shit just "gets tight" and maybe "pulled inward" for lack of better sciencey terminology. These subtle positive effects may not show up on a tape measure.

Its also more muscle you can add to your frame ....somewhere/anywhere its another workout (abs/core day), helps with metabolic rate, cardio, etc.

Maybe some of this stuff is placebo effect and in my head .... either way if real or not to whatever degree, seeing SOME progress to my very faint six-pack, further will reinforce that I am making progress and stoke the fire...... I feel like trying harder on my diet, etc.

Brethren, let us recite BroScience #43 - Evolution of Lifting Man:
"... you had some beginner gains that nobody cares about or notices, but you've experienced your first pump, AND you've experienced your first loss of pump. You've seen what you could be, and what you once were all on the same day, this is a lot to take in, this is your first taste of glory ...."


Amen.

....


========================

I shit you not .....
On the post below, I was slowly scrolling down through this old thread at stopped scrolling when the two paragraphs with the yellow faceless characters/examples came into view ..... only then then after completely reading that part, THEN, I continued scrolling down to reveal the 3-chinned 'Anime Pro' character and the girl avoiding eye contract at all possible cost. About choked on my Kirkland Lemon Sparling Water. lolz
asdf wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:17 pm Feels related, somehow.

Image

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: Abs, I guess

#40

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:31 pm

@mbasic I feel that whenever people create some rationalization for why some muscle group should not be worked (or worked too much) they are almost always wrong. Bigger is better. I mean sure if you are 300 lbs of lean bison meat ready to step on stage you might not want to bombard your obliques, but for mere mortals it does not apply. Hell some people are even afraid that their legs will get too big so they train with only split squats and jumps (lol).

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