How'd your training go?

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Culican
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Re: How'd your training go?

#821

Post by Culican » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:54 am

James wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:12 am A pretty big question in comfort is how low is your low bar?

Personally I don't see how some smaller powerlifters squat with the bar so low its touching their triceps.
My high bar is on my lower traps while my low bar is on my delts. It feels comfortable there and stays in place. Every time I have tried to lower it a fraction of an inch more to Rippetoe's "spine of the scapula" I have ended up with horrible elbow tendonitis.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#822

Post by OverheadDeadlifts » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:23 am

Got elbow aids a whopping two weeks after I tried going back to low bar two months ago, which was annoying because the lower body mechanics felt really good. Then I tried doing them with my cambered bench bar and holy shit, the bar sat on my delts perfectly and there was no strain on my arms.

Now I get why so many people like buffalo bars etc. Low bar mechanics with a bar that sits comfortably on the back is pretty sweet. Also it’s indisputable that the cambered bench bar is the single most versatile speciality bar and I can’t believe it isn’t more popular. I love it.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#823

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:10 pm

SnakePlissken wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:51 am
janoycresva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:57 am
James wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:12 am A pretty big question in comfort is how low is your low bar?

Personally I don't see how some smaller powerlifters squat with the bar so low its touching their triceps.
Probably by virtue of being smaller powerlifters. I'm just not gonna fit all 80 inches of my arms behind the bar in a lowbar position without serious discomfort, I'm not a contortionist. I'd also like to think (or delude myself, at least) that my arms and shoulders being pretty jacked is also making it more difficult.

This French lifter has it halfway down his humerus, it's unbelievable:
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:32 am The higher the bar, the greater the knee tendonitis for me, and that goes double for high volume on Squats. Knee sleeves help, but they don't relieve it 100%.
Same. Highbar = patellar tendonitis eventually, SSB = patellar tendonitis but faster.
Do the PL feds not have a max allowable distance below the anterior delt anymore? I haven't paid much attention to rules changes over the years, but they used to limit how low the lifters could go.
A few years ago I wanted to do a PL meet and signed up for one; it got cancelled anyway because of Covid, but the weeks leading up I realized that I didn't care about it because of all the nuanced rules made the whole thing feel silly. I don't even remember the name of the fed, but you had to strip down to underwear to show them you were going to wear legless briefs during weigh ins (and had to wear them meet day of you would be DQ'd) and they had a whole litany of approved and non-approved gear. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if there was a rule of how low the bar can be because Booger McGee back in 1976 put the bar on his hip one time and broke a Fed's record. PLing rules are almost as complicated as US Tax and Gun Laws it feels.
I feel certain that there was rule of max 3" below the top of the posterioir delt or something to that effect, which would have to have been a USAPL or USPF rule - most likely USAPL - because the guys discussing it were certainly one of those two. It would have been on Strength List or GoHeavy, so possibly APF, but those guys were mostly USAPL.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#824

Post by janoycresva » Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:38 pm

SnakePlissken wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am A few years ago I wanted to do a PL meet and signed up for one; it got cancelled anyway because of Covid, but the weeks leading up I realized that I didn't care about it because of all the nuanced rules made the whole thing feel silly. I don't even remember the name of the fed, but you had to strip down to underwear to show them you were going to wear legless briefs during weigh ins (and had to wear them meet day of you would be DQ'd) and they had a whole litany of approved and non-approved gear. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if there was a rule of how low the bar can be because Booger McGee back in 1976 put the bar on his hip one time and broke a Fed's record. PLing rules are almost as complicated as US Tax and Gun Laws it feels.
Booger McGee, the Westside Barbell legend with a vestigial tail that poked through his squat suit and allowed him to carry the bar on his ass

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Re: How'd your training go?

#825

Post by SnakePlissken » Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:59 pm

janoycresva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:38 pm
SnakePlissken wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am A few years ago I wanted to do a PL meet and signed up for one; it got cancelled anyway because of Covid, but the weeks leading up I realized that I didn't care about it because of all the nuanced rules made the whole thing feel silly. I don't even remember the name of the fed, but you had to strip down to underwear to show them you were going to wear legless briefs during weigh ins (and had to wear them meet day of you would be DQ'd) and they had a whole litany of approved and non-approved gear. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if there was a rule of how low the bar can be because Booger McGee back in 1976 put the bar on his hip one time and broke a Fed's record. PLing rules are almost as complicated as US Tax and Gun Laws it feels.
Booger McGee, the Westside Barbell legend with a vestigial tail that poked through his squat suit and allowed him to carry the bar on his ass
Surprised more people don't talk about him

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Re: How'd your training go?

#826

Post by FredM » Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:08 am

Hardartery wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:05 pm
janoycresva wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:46 pm
FredM wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 am I think I'm officially team High Bar.

I tried low bar again and changed grips, kept it wide, and still ended up with discomfort the next day. Although I love my SSB I feel like it's limiting my low back strength (too upright) and I also noticed when I go really deep in the bottom 2 inches I slide forward, which is probably why it beats up my right knee more than I'd like. Also with low bar, my mechanics at the bottom break down in the other direction.

Enter high bar (without squat shoes). I'm ATG with completely fluid form (no weirdness at the bottom) and there's no shoulder or other discomfort the next day. Pretty excited to work up to some heavy stuff and get some free PRs (my high bar PR is probably 285 beltless from the 6 week period I did an Oly program, and my current SSB is 295@8).
I don’t understand how someone can possibly do lowbar, it feels absolutely fucked. I’ve tried to switch to lowbar like 3 times (highbar irritates my knees fairly often) and it’s always an adventure in forearm tendonitis and failure.
First, use a stiffer bar (I know, that's what she said). The elbow flare-ups come from bar flex more than anything. Use wider hand spacing, I literally grab the collars sometimes and have on occasion grabbed the plates when working up to work sets. Use a slower descent, the biggest bounce tends to be at the bottom after your body stops moving for most people which torques the elbows quite badly. Or, just switch to a SSB for non-comp lifting. Low bar is way more comfortable in general and I can certainly squat a lot more that way, and I get elbow bitching sometimes too if I take a narrow grip on the bar. Of course these days it takes me a lot of warmup to get to low bar position, the left shoulder is cranky with the two bone spurs still.
Nope. Stiffer bar makes things worse for me on low bar. Possibly just because it's slightly bigger and pinches stuff slightly worse. Although yeah, nothing effs things up faster than trying a narrower grip. It's not elbow aids for me. It screws up my right shoulder. In the same way benching on a bad bench regularly screws up my right shoulder. I'm sure it's fixable with time and effort but at the end of the day high bar feels more natural now anyway and gives me absolutely no problems. It's even making my low back sore again which is nice because I think my lower back got pretty weak giving up deadlifts and only doing SSB.

I can squat more doing low bar incorrectly but if I force myself to hit depth and avoid the SS good morning it's not much stronger than deep high bar squats.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#827

Post by Hardartery » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:04 am

FredM wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:08 am
Hardartery wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:05 pm
janoycresva wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:46 pm
FredM wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:36 am I think I'm officially team High Bar.

I tried low bar again and changed grips, kept it wide, and still ended up with discomfort the next day. Although I love my SSB I feel like it's limiting my low back strength (too upright) and I also noticed when I go really deep in the bottom 2 inches I slide forward, which is probably why it beats up my right knee more than I'd like. Also with low bar, my mechanics at the bottom break down in the other direction.

Enter high bar (without squat shoes). I'm ATG with completely fluid form (no weirdness at the bottom) and there's no shoulder or other discomfort the next day. Pretty excited to work up to some heavy stuff and get some free PRs (my high bar PR is probably 285 beltless from the 6 week period I did an Oly program, and my current SSB is 295@8).
I don’t understand how someone can possibly do lowbar, it feels absolutely fucked. I’ve tried to switch to lowbar like 3 times (highbar irritates my knees fairly often) and it’s always an adventure in forearm tendonitis and failure.
First, use a stiffer bar (I know, that's what she said). The elbow flare-ups come from bar flex more than anything. Use wider hand spacing, I literally grab the collars sometimes and have on occasion grabbed the plates when working up to work sets. Use a slower descent, the biggest bounce tends to be at the bottom after your body stops moving for most people which torques the elbows quite badly. Or, just switch to a SSB for non-comp lifting. Low bar is way more comfortable in general and I can certainly squat a lot more that way, and I get elbow bitching sometimes too if I take a narrow grip on the bar. Of course these days it takes me a lot of warmup to get to low bar position, the left shoulder is cranky with the two bone spurs still.
Nope. Stiffer bar makes things worse for me on low bar. Possibly just because it's slightly bigger and pinches stuff slightly worse. Although yeah, nothing effs things up faster than trying a narrower grip. It's not elbow aids for me. It screws up my right shoulder. In the same way benching on a bad bench regularly screws up my right shoulder. I'm sure it's fixable with time and effort but at the end of the day high bar feels more natural now anyway and gives me absolutely no problems. It's even making my low back sore again which is nice because I think my lower back got pretty weak giving up deadlifts and only doing SSB.

I can squat more doing low bar incorrectly but if I force myself to hit depth and avoid the SS good morning it's not much stronger than deep high bar squats.
You said it was forearm tendonitis in the original post, so that's what I was going on. Shoulder is a different animal. You should find out what exactly is wrong with it, it might be possible to fix it with some rehab stuff but I would not do that without knowing why. In my case I know that I have arthritis and two bone spurs in the left shoulder, so I know exactly what's going on and I am doing things to restore the ROM in the shoulder. I should have had it checked out years ago instead of just avoiding stuff that hurt - it would have saved me a lot of painful rehab work.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#828

Post by janoycresva » Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:47 pm

took my new powerblock DBs for a ride yesterday, my pecs are annihilated

definitely programming in some db bench, felt fucking great and I’m stale on barbell benching 3-4x a week

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Re: How'd your training go?

#829

Post by 5hout » Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:32 am

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:10 pm
SnakePlissken wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:51 am
janoycresva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:57 am
James wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:12 am A pretty big question in comfort is how low is your low bar?

Personally I don't see how some smaller powerlifters squat with the bar so low its touching their triceps.
Probably by virtue of being smaller powerlifters. I'm just not gonna fit all 80 inches of my arms behind the bar in a lowbar position without serious discomfort, I'm not a contortionist. I'd also like to think (or delude myself, at least) that my arms and shoulders being pretty jacked is also making it more difficult.

This French lifter has it halfway down his humerus, it's unbelievable:
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:32 am The higher the bar, the greater the knee tendonitis for me, and that goes double for high volume on Squats. Knee sleeves help, but they don't relieve it 100%.
Same. Highbar = patellar tendonitis eventually, SSB = patellar tendonitis but faster.
Do the PL feds not have a max allowable distance below the anterior delt anymore? I haven't paid much attention to rules changes over the years, but they used to limit how low the lifters could go.
A few years ago I wanted to do a PL meet and signed up for one; it got cancelled anyway because of Covid, but the weeks leading up I realized that I didn't care about it because of all the nuanced rules made the whole thing feel silly. I don't even remember the name of the fed, but you had to strip down to underwear to show them you were going to wear legless briefs during weigh ins (and had to wear them meet day of you would be DQ'd) and they had a whole litany of approved and non-approved gear. I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if there was a rule of how low the bar can be because Booger McGee back in 1976 put the bar on his hip one time and broke a Fed's record. PLing rules are almost as complicated as US Tax and Gun Laws it feels.
I feel certain that there was rule of max 3" below the top of the posterioir delt or something to that effect, which would have to have been a USAPL or USPF rule - most likely USAPL - because the guys discussing it were certainly one of those two. It would have been on Strength List or GoHeavy, so possibly APF, but those guys were mostly USAPL.


115, this isnt a great discussion but (afaik) it was bc they felt Ed Coan was leading the charge towards people squatting unsafely lowly on his back. If kids nap well today will look for a magazine article discussing it.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#830

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:43 am

So many rules, yet they have not managed to get rid of the crazy arch benching with close to 0 range of motion.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#831

Post by 5hout » Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:16 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:43 am So many rules, yet they have not managed to get rid of the crazy arch benching with close to 0 range of motion.
Didn't this just get banned? Are people still sneaking around the ban?

On topic:

I had my 1st real workout since hunting season started (Oct 1st) and it felt fucking great. New bench rack/bench. Marked correct IPF rings instead of Oly rings on my bench bar so my setup isn't random crap. Need to drop rest times a bit again, but I think door to door was under an hour and I spent a good amount of time dicking around changing settings. Now all I need to do is get back to some kind of cardio/pulling programming. One more hunt (Sunday afternoon) for the year and then all the gear goes away. Bittersweet, but last chance at a huge 8 or 10 point (can't tell) I've been seeing periodically (but only when out of range of my equipment).

Kettlebells really helped bridge the gap between "can't find time to train b/c work/kids/hunting" and "doing something".

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Re: How'd your training go?

#832

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:39 am

5hout wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:16 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:43 am So many rules, yet they have not managed to get rid of the crazy arch benching with close to 0 range of motion.
Didn't this just get banned? Are people still sneaking around the ban?

On topic:

I had my 1st real workout since hunting season started (Oct 1st) and it felt fucking great. New bench rack/bench. Marked correct IPF rings instead of Oly rings on my bench bar so my setup isn't random crap. Need to drop rest times a bit again, but I think door to door was under an hour and I spent a good amount of time dicking around changing settings. Now all I need to do is get back to some kind of cardio/pulling programming. One more hunt (Sunday afternoon) for the year and then all the gear goes away. Bittersweet, but last chance at a huge 8 or 10 point (can't tell) I've been seeing periodically (but only when out of range of my equipment).

Kettlebells really helped bridge the gap between "can't find time to train b/c work/kids/hunting" and "doing something".
Actually you are right, I discovered the rules just changed, I stand corrected. Now the new rules seem to make judging harder but its better than the 0 ROM benches.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#833

Post by alek » Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:00 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:39 am
5hout wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:16 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:43 am So many rules, yet they have not managed to get rid of the crazy arch benching with close to 0 range of motion.
Didn't this just get banned? Are people still sneaking around the ban?

On topic:

I had my 1st real workout since hunting season started (Oct 1st) and it felt fucking great. New bench rack/bench. Marked correct IPF rings instead of Oly rings on my bench bar so my setup isn't random crap. Need to drop rest times a bit again, but I think door to door was under an hour and I spent a good amount of time dicking around changing settings. Now all I need to do is get back to some kind of cardio/pulling programming. One more hunt (Sunday afternoon) for the year and then all the gear goes away. Bittersweet, but last chance at a huge 8 or 10 point (can't tell) I've been seeing periodically (but only when out of range of my equipment).

Kettlebells really helped bridge the gap between "can't find time to train b/c work/kids/hunting" and "doing something".
Actually you are right, I discovered the rules just changed, I stand corrected. Now the new rules seem to make judging harder but its better than the 0 ROM benches.
Don't the rules changes in the IPF refer to the arms and not the arch? Meaning, there's now a "depth rule" but not an outright ban on arches.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#834

Post by Hardartery » Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:07 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:39 am
5hout wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:16 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:43 am So many rules, yet they have not managed to get rid of the crazy arch benching with close to 0 range of motion.
Didn't this just get banned? Are people still sneaking around the ban?

On topic:

I had my 1st real workout since hunting season started (Oct 1st) and it felt fucking great. New bench rack/bench. Marked correct IPF rings instead of Oly rings on my bench bar so my setup isn't random crap. Need to drop rest times a bit again, but I think door to door was under an hour and I spent a good amount of time dicking around changing settings. Now all I need to do is get back to some kind of cardio/pulling programming. One more hunt (Sunday afternoon) for the year and then all the gear goes away. Bittersweet, but last chance at a huge 8 or 10 point (can't tell) I've been seeing periodically (but only when out of range of my equipment).

Kettlebells really helped bridge the gap between "can't find time to train b/c work/kids/hunting" and "doing something".
Actually you are right, I discovered the rules just changed, I stand corrected. Now the new rules seem to make judging harder but its better than the 0 ROM benches.
I'm not convinced that the IPF attempt will accomplish anything useful, honestly. I've seen some very large SHW lifters that would have trouble meeting that rule and they use no arch of any kind. I think that's the reason no one else has followed suit.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#835

Post by 5hout » Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:10 am

alek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:00 am

Don't the rules changes in the IPF refer to the arms and not the arch? Meaning, there's now a "depth rule" but not an outright ban on arches.
Sort of? The way the rule is worded and the way the images as part of the rule book are drawn, it's a depth/rom rule that allows enough arch to be a proper bench setup (i.e. you don't have to press spine into bench and can get a nice tight back and a bit of shoulder rotation, without alllthe silly stuff. Obviously we'll have to wait and see a few seasons to see how the judging goes and see what people can still get away with, but it seems to be an above average rule change.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#836

Post by alek » Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:20 am

5hout wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:10 am
alek wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:00 am Don't the rules changes in the IPF refer to the arms and not the arch? Meaning, there's now a "depth rule" but not an outright ban on arches.
Sort of? The way the rule is worded and the way the images as part of the rule book are drawn, it's a depth/rom rule that allows enough arch to be a proper bench setup (i.e. you don't have to press spine into bench and can get a nice tight back and a bit of shoulder rotation, without alllthe silly stuff. Obviously we'll have to wait and see a few seasons to see how the judging goes and see what people can still get away with, but it seems to be an above average rule change.
Right; I just think we'll see some "crazy" arches regardless of the rule change. I'm one gangly motherfucker, and even with my biggest current arch, my elbows break the plane of the bench.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#837

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:13 am

I'm assuming that this suggestion would anger powerlifters, but why not simply make flat back close grip bench the comp lift ? It would solve a bunch of problems.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#838

Post by slowmotion » Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:34 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:13 am I'm assuming that this suggestion would anger powerlifters, but why not simply make flat back close grip bench the comp lift ? It would solve a bunch of problems.
And increase shoulder problems.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#839

Post by James » Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:59 am

The new bench arch rule is more about arm length than it is about crazy arches, though those are a part of it. If you're 4'9" and using a max width grip you aren't going to hit "bench depth" even with a moderate arch. The contortionist arch just takes it from a four inch ROM to a two inch one.

They should take it a step further if you're some 7' monster as long as you can hit "bench depth" you should be able to bench as wide as you need.

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Re: How'd your training go?

#840

Post by JohnHelton » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:37 am

I like the way the rule was written and hope that it is adopted by other federations. ROM is the important variable. If your arms break the horizontal plane, then you have moved the bar far enough regardless of the arch. If you watch a bench with a very short range of motion, the arms won't break the plane. If the bench looks normal (like a legit effort), then the arms will break the plane.

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