Too much volume or normal during cut?

[tdood]

Man, I say try sumo. You're build makes in unlikely that you'll ever be a conventional wiz. Look at SSC Adam Franklin, he intentionally rounds his upper back now, but I think perfect extention doing semi sumo would be better. @KoolaidMannn and @dkw had extention issues and now pull flat backed. You could try RDLs like @Hanley says, but I don't know if it'll ever going to click for you with your long back.

[PatrickDB]

He doesn't seem ridiculously proportioned to me, @tdood. His first rep of the December 20th video was pretty good. I suspect right now it's a "too much weight on the bar to maintain extension" issue rather than an anthropometrical one. If you look at the latest video, the first rep is OK, then he gets tired and doesn't set his back on the next one, and so on.

ETA: Actually I'm not sure. It may be that he can only get in extension on the first one because he has the bar far away from his shins, then when he puts it down for the next rep it's over his midfoot and his anthropometry screws him.

Of course, we can test this. @timelinex, can we see your warmups next time? A set of 5 at 185, cranking into the absolute hardest low back extension that's physically possible on each rep? Make sure you feel the tension in your hamstrings before pulling. Also, measure your foot again, find the midfoot exactly, and put the bar there, so we can eliminate the balance issue.

Also, just for kicks, can we also see you pulling 185 semi-sumo, again with the most forceful possible back extension?

[tdood]

@PatrickDB I don't think he's completely incapable or has crazy proportions, but I think he has a long torso and not long arms. I saw the same thing on his first rep..good extention, bar is out front. Maybe I'm wrong. Koolaid and Kong aren't freaks tho, things are just a little bit better sumo. My deadlift perspective is skewed.. the first time I DL'd I just walked up and stiff legged 365x5 with a flat back. My back is short.

[AaronM]

... the first time I DL'd I just walked up and stiff legged 365x5 with a flat back...

Seriously?!? And then there are those of us who never even reached 365x5 after a year of training...

[KoolaidMannn]

Man, I say try sumo. You're build makes in unlikely that you'll ever be a conventional wiz. Look at SSC Adam Franklin, he intentionally rounds his upper back now, but I think perfect extention doing semi sumo would be better. @KoolaidMannn and @dkw had extention issues and now pull flat backed. You could try RDLs like @Hanley says, but I don't know if it'll ever going to click for you with your long back.

I tried almost everything I could to learn to pull with a flat back, RDLs, rack pulls, flat back only DLs, multiple resets... if you have someone coach you/watch videos of yourself and try you hardest to be able to flat back pull for 6 months- a year of training and still can’t, just say fuck it an pull sumo, even if you don’t have crazy proportions. I pulled 535 with a round low back and couldn’t keep my back set consistently with anything over 385. I wish I started with sumo after my SSLP instead of wasting time

[BenM]

That’s it. I’m trying sumo too.

[timelinex]

I will try to get a video either at my next hotel if i can lift there or when I am back in the states.

The problem with trying too light of weight to test form is it's easy to handle and pick up without hips shooting up or losing my balance even if the bar is not correctly midfoot. I think i just use my back off the floor to manhandle it versus pushing with my legs and hips. I will try to get a video of 185 though. I will also try to put back rdl warm ups and see if the "rocking" thing helps.

I know I don't have good anthopometry for deadlifts, but I thought I was actually always pretty well off in it because of my disproportionately strong back. I started squatting and deadlifting at the same time and even with resets and me working on flexibility my post novice l.p. deadlift 1rm was 425 (albeit rounded) vs high bar squat of 340. Big difference.

I will probably do worse with sumo initially, because my back is disproportionately strong while my glutes are almost non existant. Which is the opposite of what you would want for a strong sumo, right? More importantly even just saying sumo, feels like saying a dirty word but ill get pver it if i have to

[KDW]

@timelinex
It looks like you could pull of a pretty nice looking conventional. You just have to figure out what is blocking your extension. If it is just lack of awareness, then, you just gotta work on that. Do the superman or something to get that feel. If it is a flexibility or extensibility issue of the hamstrings, glutes, adductors, then I say try sumo.

Also, if your glutes are non-existant, then doing sumo is probably exactly what you need to get dat peach. Contrary to popular thought, your back will continue to get stronger as you pull with a good back position with more loading and more volume over time. Your muscles don't know you are pulling sumo versus conventional, they just know that they have work to do to stabilize your spine and they have to adapt.

[Hanley]

Your muscles don't know you are pulling sumo versus conventional, they just know that they have work to do to stabilize your spine and they have to adapt.

I’m just gonna quote this, and throw in some stars
*********
because it’s awesome

[PatrickDB]

KDW with the drive-by knowledge bomb. Nice.

[timelinex]

It's definitely hamstring(or some other link in the chain) flexibility.

Shit, i might as well give sumo a try, even if I don't stick with it. Any particular YouTube's you guys recommend for a how to on the sumo? Usually I do starting strength coaches videos....But you guys know their view of sumo.....so don't know who to trust on mechanics tips.

[mbasic]

I used to think the RDLs Rx was the ticket for this problem.

But maybe LIGHT GoodMornings might be a better way for your back to "learn" what to do.

IDK

[tdood]

It's definitely hamstring(or some other link in the chain) flexibility.

Shit, i might as well give sumo a try, even if I don't stick with it. Any particular YouTube's you guys recommend for a how to on the sumo? Usually I do starting strength coaches videos....But you guys know their view of sumo.....so don't know who to trust on mechanics tips.

You could always just keep pulling with a round back and say it just looks round because of your large erector muscle bellies.

[timelinex]

Man, I say try sumo. You're build makes in unlikely that you'll ever be a conventional wiz. Look at SSC Adam Franklin, he intentionally rounds his upper back now, but I think perfect extention doing semi sumo would be better. @KoolaidMannn and @dkw had extention issues and now pull flat backed. You could try RDLs like @Hanley says, but I don't know if it'll ever going to click for you with your long back.

I tried almost everything I could to learn to pull with a flat back, RDLs, rack pulls, flat back only DLs, multiple resets... if you have someone coach you/watch videos of yourself and try you hardest to be able to flat back pull for 6 months- a year of training and still can’t, just say fuck it an pull sumo, even if you don’t have crazy proportions. I pulled 535 with a round low back and couldn’t keep my back set consistently with anything over 385. I wish I started with sumo after my SSLP instead of wasting time

Coincidently, I just happened to run across your Instagram today because of a post someone else made of your deadlifting and switch to sumo. I probably stalked your page for a good 5 minutes looking at all your conventional dl videos, before realizing your name looked familiar and circling back to the forum. Haha. Your conventional deadlifts looks eerily similar to mine! (With a few extra lb's).

Did DL with the not perfect extension end up giving you problems? I've surprising had little back issue, but obviously don't want to push my luck either.

I will be coming back to the states tomorrow after a long vaca and can finally experiment again with some of the advice given on here.

[KoolaidMannn]

Man, I say try sumo. You're build makes in unlikely that you'll ever be a conventional wiz. Look at SSC Adam Franklin, he intentionally rounds his upper back now, but I think perfect extention doing semi sumo would be better. @KoolaidMannn and @dkw had extention issues and now pull flat backed. You could try RDLs like @Hanley says, but I don't know if it'll ever going to click for you with your long back.

I tried almost everything I could to learn to pull with a flat back, RDLs, rack pulls, flat back only DLs, multiple resets... if you have someone coach you/watch videos of yourself and try you hardest to be able to flat back pull for 6 months- a year of training and still can’t, just say fuck it an pull sumo, even if you don’t have crazy proportions. I pulled 535 with a round low back and couldn’t keep my back set consistently with anything over 385. I wish I started with sumo after my SSLP instead of wasting time

Coincidently, I just happened to run across your Instagram today because of a post someone else made of your deadlifting and switch to sumo. I probably stalked your page for a good 5 minutes looking at all your conventional dl videos, before realizing your name looked familiar and circling back to the forum. Haha. Your conventional deadlifts looks eerily similar to mine! (With a few extra lb's).

Did DL with the not perfect extension end up giving you problems? I've surprising had little back issue, but obviously don't want to push my luck either.

I will be coming back to the states tomorrow after a long vaca and can finally experiment again with some of the advice given on here.

No I never had any injuries or pain related to deadlift at all, but people like Dwayne and Tom S were knudging me to not make the switch, no reason to put myself at an even higher risk of injury if long term strength is the goal (in my opinion) Finally I committed to it and It’s been way worth it.. wish I switched immedietly after my LP instead of fucking around with that close stance shit for 8 months

[BenM]

Just anecdotally, I started practicing sumo because of this thread as well and it definitely feels stronger for me even though I’m not proportioned for it (long legs / arms). It also feels safer - I have similar issues getting my thoracic spine flat and while it’s still not perfect with sumo (and I have a long way to go to nail down the form anyway) I don’t feel as stiff after pulling sumo as I do afternoon pulling conventional either.

Downside is, sumo smashes the outside of my hamstrings in a way they’re not used to so I’ve been suffering a fair bit of soreness there! Guess that’ll improve once I get adapted to it a bit.

[timelinex]

Today was my first day back at the gym doing dead lifts since 2.5 weeks ago or so. I'm also a little sick. Regardless, I did my conventional deadlift set and as per your guys recommendation I then tried Sumo

Here is my conventional:



It starts out semi ok I think, but you can still see a little arch. If I move any further from the bar or drop my hips any more, it just results in my hips shooting up. Ignore the fidgeting in the middle of the set. My grip must have gotten weaker over the break as well and I had to change from double overhand to alternate. Overall I think I haven't really progressed anywhere with my conventional. At best, I can get an almost flat back. But it's so hard to keep it there considering it is definitely the limit of my flexibility.

So here is the same weight but in sumo. It is the absolute first time doing sumo in my life. I don't even know if I setup right:



It felt like a much stronger position! For better or worse, my back definitely felt like it barely had to do any work though. The movement definitely felt weird too. My hips would constantly get in the way of my hands on the way up at the top. Not sure if I was doing something wrong or it's just something you get used to. I also felt a much bigger strain and burn on my lower posterior chain, but thats a good thing. It's hard to tell if the weight felt easier or the same, but it wasn't harder and it's definitely a relief not having to worry about my lumbar arch. I was so focused on the new movement and position I forgot to even think about straightening the back. But it was just so much easier to have a straight back in that lower position that I think I just did it naturally. I realized by the last rep that I wasn't even utilizing the belt to the full degree either (not flexing abs hard). I was just distracted by the newness of it all. I should be more cognoscente of these things as I get used to it.

Here was my setup. I recognize I need to widen my arms, I'm not sure why I slanted them inward. I might have not done that on the actual set. I wasn't really sure how wide to go with my feet or how much to lean back, but this felt good. :




Comments? Concerns? Am I gonna have to swallow my price and move over to Sumo?

[Hanley]

I’m sorta amazed that those are your first sumo reps ever.

They look really, really good.

[mgil]

I’m sorta amazed that those are your first sumo reps ever.

They look really, really good.

+1

My first sumo pulls looked way worse.

[timelinex]

I’m sorta amazed that those are your first sumo reps ever.

They look really, really good.

I could have been more clear. The video was 330x5. I did 5 at 135 and then 3 at 225 before this set. So these are #9-14 of my 'first sumo reps ever'.

Anyways, then I take it your recommendation is for me to change to sumo? Is there any programming considerations I need to make? For example more reps/sets to account for the shorter range of motion or add some lower back work to account for the significantly less stress on the lower back?