The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

[Hardartery]

@mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

The men didn't change waist and hip measurements from start to finish too much .... and only gained 10 pounds.

33.5"+/- at the waist isn't terrible for an average american.

So in my mind they were sorta skinny-fat (even though not "skinny"), and then they got slightly less skinny-fat after DTP.

.... of the average 10 pounds gained:
+ 2 of it was probably bone mass/mineral density;
+ 2-3 probably glycogen storage/water (from eating more and training)
+ 2-3 probably fat mass

....how much does stainless weigh again? V=4/3πr^3

I might be biased (being a european pajama boi with all the aggressivity bred out of him who does not even lift) but if you are 5'9 with a 34 inches waistline and you weight 196 lbs you are not skinny fat, you are muscular, and look like you lift. But then when you look at the before afters most of them look like a michelin man.

How jacked are you guys ? I know there are some monsters on the forum but still.

I think the chest measurement is probably a bigger factor than the waist measurement. I know Hugo Girard for example looked pretty jacked towards the end of his career, with a waist significantly larger than 34". But he had a chest well north of 70" (I think he told me it was 72 or 74", he found out when he had to get a suit made for his wedding) At 6'0 with a waist of probably around 44" atm I do not consider myself jacked, but with a chest just over 50" I am at least not DYEL and could pass for jacked on my bench/shoulder day when I am all pumped up. In spite of the stomach. If I can get down to a 38" waist on the current slow cut (Which is not unrealistic) I will absolutely look jacked in a group of normal sized people. I am aiming for a Pisarenko look, more or less, which I am not far off of right now.
My point being, a 34" waist is meaningless without context. If it's also a 34" chest, not a great look at any height. If it's a 46" or greater chest it's going to look impressive, and if there are shoulders sticking out past that even better. I have acquired the shoulder projecting out to the sides past the chest look and it helps a lot versus the compact look of shoulders not sticking out.

[DCR]

@mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

The men didn't change waist and hip measurements from start to finish too much .... and only gained 10 pounds.

33.5"+/- at the waist isn't terrible for an average american.

So in my mind they were sorta skinny-fat (even though not "skinny"), and then they got slightly less skinny-fat after DTP.

.... of the average 10 pounds gained:
+ 2 of it was probably bone mass/mineral density;
+ 2-3 probably glycogen storage/water (from eating more and training)
+ 2-3 probably fat mass

....how much does stainless weigh again? V=4/3πr^3

I might be biased (being a european pajama boi with all the aggressivity bred out of him who does not even lift) but if you are 5'9 with a 34 inches waistline and you weight 196 lbs you are not skinny fat, you are muscular, and look like you lift. But then when you look at the before afters most of them look like a michelin man.

How jacked are you guys ? I know there are some monsters on the forum but still.

Agree. Either the numbers are incorrect, or more folks than I thought declined to / couldn't stand to binge eat and didn't make a ton of progress on the program (as opposed to those of us who became fat fucks and also didn't make a ton of progress).

Bodies are weird / different, though. I'm 5'7", 205 lbs. I have a very large back / shoulders, with lats that rival most natural bodybuilders, if I do say so myself. I've also got very muscular, but not so separated, thighs, and my triceps look large most of the time (but seem to flatten quickly if I take time off). On the other hand, I have a shitty, skinny fat looking chest, long arms with little to show for bis and forearms, no calves (although they come quick if I work them), and, the shit cherry on top, a gut that extends two or so inches past my chest and love handles that put me right in DYEL in the eyes of the average person. (My natural US pants size is a 30 waist. I'm currently a 35 or so who can wear a 34 in some brands if I suck in.) I can fool myself into thinking that I'm jacked when I have a pump going, but outside of that... no, I do not consider myself jacked generally, certainly not by what I once envisioned that to mean. I suspect that this is a lot of us.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

To be clear by "jacked" I meant having a good amount of muscle. Sure, there's more than a good amount of muscle to look like a bodybuilder (thin waist, work on small show muscles like rear delts, biceps etc), I agree with that.

@DCR I'm pretty sure you are jacked, based on the numbers you provided. Of course, the more you are in this lifting thing, the more you become body dysmorphic. I'm almost 210 lbs and I feel small. It's OK.

@Hardartery you are right that a waist size without context does not mean much. And certainly the waist size versus chest/shoulders size is much more informative. I guess there could be some guys who just have a very tiny waist (i.e. good bodybuilding genetics) and just store fat in other places. However here we're looking at the average data: how likely is it that all of the guys in the study have the bodytype of Serge Nubret ? I don't know, or these people in the study just have a strange body. There's probably something I'm missing.

[Hardartery]

To be clear by "jacked" I meant having a good amount of muscle. Sure, there's more than a good amount of muscle to look like a bodybuilder (thin waist, work on small show muscles like rear delts, biceps etc), I agree with that.

@DCR I'm pretty sure you are jacked, based on the numbers you provided. Of course, the more you are in this lifting thing, the more you become body dysmorphic. I'm almost 210 lbs and I feel small. It's OK.

@Hardartery you are right that a waist size without context does not mean much. And certainly the waist size versus chest/shoulders size is much more informative. I guess there could be some guys who just have a very tiny waist (i.e. good bodybuilding genetics) and just store fat in other places. However here we're looking at the average data: how likely is it that all of the guys in the study have the bodytype of Serge Nubret ? I don't know, or these people in the study just have a strange body. There's probably something I'm missing.

I am sure there is something about the data that we are not catching, it's not exactly a controlled cohort or anything. It is likely a specific subset of the population that he appeals to though.

[KyleSchuant]

I just wanted to say: thanks for the spreadsheet, this is absolutely awesome work.

Thanks.

One result that particularly resounded with me was: the average bodyweight at the end which is 205 lbs (adult male) versus the average bench press which is 188 lbs (lol). And mind you, most people had previous training experience.

If it helps, you can think of two things. Firstly, generally those numbers are work weights, either 5s or some tapering 3s. If a person can do 188 x3-5, they can do 205x1. Secondly, 2/3 of the people were uncoached, which will often mean not having encouragement or a spotter. This means squats going high or being backed off on a lot - even with safeties, I'm constantly having to yell at my lifters about depth and piking out once it hits 80+% - and bench press being approached tentatively. They might have had a bit more in them - we're not talking 50lb more on bench here, but 5-10lb more is definitely reasonable.

The data looks completely weird on this article. [...] the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs.

I'd be honestly surprised if they were actually measuring people in their gyms, in my experience gym members are self-conscious as fuck about that, if you try to measure them at all, let alone in front of others at the gym, they just don't come back. More likely they simply asked them their stats. "Yeah, I wear 34" slacks." Yeah, he wears his 34" slacks under his belly and is constantly pulling his pants up.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@KyleSchuant yeah your theory regarding pants size makes sense. I've read several threads in the old forum where people mention pants size.

[Hardartery]

The data looks completely weird on this article. [...] the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs.

I'd be honestly surprised if they were actually measuring people in their gyms, in my experience gym members are self-conscious as fuck about that, if you try to measure them at all, let alone in front of others at the gym, they just don't come back. More likely they simply asked them their stats. "Yeah, I wear 34" slacks." Yeah, he wears his 34" slacks under his belly and is constantly pulling his pants up.

I wear 40" pants and they are loose at the waist, but I know full well that my waist is not 40", the pants they sell in N America are not true to size. Unless you are buying a suit, that's when you find out how fat you are. I would guess my actual waist is 42-44", and the 40" pants are currently comfortably spacious at the waist.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

On the topic of pants size and waist size, I remember Izzy Narvaez saying he wore 36' inches pants when his waist size was 40 inches (at the height of his hardcore gomad-fueled phase). The before-after photos were stuff of nightmares.

[DCR]

The data looks completely weird on this article. [...] the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs.

I'd be honestly surprised if they were actually measuring people in their gyms, in my experience gym members are self-conscious as fuck about that, if you try to measure them at all, let alone in front of others at the gym, they just don't come back. More likely they simply asked them their stats. "Yeah, I wear 34" slacks." Yeah, he wears his 34" slacks under his belly and is constantly pulling his pants up.

I wear 40" pants and they are loose at the waist, but I know full well that my waist is not 40", the pants they sell in N America are not true to size. Unless you are buying a suit, that's when you find out how fat you are. I would guess my actual waist is 42-44", and the 40" pants are currently comfortably spacious at the waist.

Yup. A soul crushing experience.

[KyleSchuant]

I remember Izzy Narvaez

GOMAD, 9 months, 165 to 242lb. Then did steroids for a bit, then didn't touch them again. No half-measures with this lad.

As an aside, when I did the websearch to find that link, I also found his SS account. I thought it'd be interesting to see what his SS NLP numbers were. At a glance, he doesn't seem to have done a novice log, but I did find this one (from 2011!) in Rip's Q&A where he asks if he's doing the programme or not. Rip told the 5'6" 195lb 39.5" waist guy - BMI 31.5 - to ease up on the milk but keep eating 4,000kCal a day. The thread got tangled up arguing over just that advice, and was locked in the end. Interestingly, he also posted about getting... elbow tendonitis. So it seems like it ended as it does for many.

[CaptainAwesome]

It strikes me that I still haven't done one of these.

Coached y/n: only form check type stuff
Previous training y/n: nothing serious or lengthy, I fucked around unsuccessfully with weights in my youth and gave up on them for a long time
Injured during NLP: just back tweaks, chronic knee issues
Gender: Male
Age: 38 (now) 34 (first LP)
Height: 6'2"
Weight at start and end: 235 pounds before any SS work, 310 at the heaviest after the second go at LP
Squat, press, bench, deadlift and powerclean at end of novice linear progression
Squat: 290x5x3
Press 140x5x3
Bench 230x5x3
Deadlift 380x5
Power Clean 140x3x5

Any further comments?
These are kind of mixed, I ran multiple LPs trying to outdo myself each time, usually they were after cutting a lot of the weight from the prior LP. The most successful was the second try, that was the one where I started everything conservatively and also went apeshit with the bulking up to a max of 310 pounds. LPs after that second one would basically hit the wall at around the same spots on every lift.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@CaptainAwesome That's some serious bulking !

[CaptainAwesome]

@CaptainAwesome That's some serious bulking !

I wanted to effectively rule out the "you're not eating enough" dismissal of why I wasn't able to LP into great numbers. I was also under the impression that when recovery is getting bad and shit is starting to hurt, you need to eat more food. That did not help with those problems at all, but it did net me another 10 pounds or so of bodyweight.

[mbasic]

I remember Izzy Narvaez

Then did steroids for a bit, then didn't touch them again. No half-measures with this lad.

Need to fix: Is a chronic steroid user now and has been for quite some time. He is quite public about it.

[KyleSchuant]

Thanks, CaptainAwesome. Spreadsheet updated.