Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

Powerlifting, Olympic Weightlifting, Strongman, Highland Games

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mgil
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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#201

Post by mgil » Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:42 am

Instant replay in any sport either has to be applied strictly or not at all.

My personal opinion is that it ruins most competitions. One, because human error in the judging is part of the system. Two, because it makes everyone watching a critic and faux expert. Three, it slows everything down and wastes time.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#202

Post by mbasic » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:39 am

mgil wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:42 am Instant replay in any sport either has to be applied strictly or not at all.

My personal opinion is that it ruins most competitions. One, because human error in the judging is part of the system. Two, because it makes everyone watching a critic and faux expert. Three, it slows everything down and wastes time.
I think they just need to refine the system IMO:

If its 3 whites initially, no jury intervening allowed.
Same for 3 reds (although, I think there was one instance of a triple red getting overturned to 'good lift!')

If its 2/3 or 1/3 and they suspect something funny...sure, jury can look at the tape.
BUT THEIR REPLAY-VIEW IS ONLY IN REAL TIME SPEEDS... no slo-mo.
Maybe the jury's screen can only replay the lift 3 times too or something like that.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#203

Post by mbasic » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:23 am

TheDuke wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:25 pm So Lu won gold in Tokyo in -81 kg weight class, despite lifting 5 kg less than in the last two Olympics in -77 kg weight class.
At 2016-Rio, Lu hit a world record snatch of 177 at 77 BW; had he hit that opener in Tokyo maybe we would seen 174 or something (only did 165x/165/170).

And, if 2016/Rio is you take out Rahimov ... because he was doped up as fuck (lolz at 214 CJ WR .... and that lift should've been redlighted).
.... I don't think Lu would've been pushed at all and probably would totaled less.
Ehab was not a threat after his could only SN 165 ... and was barely known to hit 195-200 in the clean and jerk in training.

Oh, and at least Lu fucking cleaned (kind of) that 210/3rd attempt at Toyko instead of doing that bullshit clean-pull-Clark-thing we see so often when a guy loads up a ridiculous 3rd attempt.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#204

Post by TheDuke » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:30 am

Is Rahimov gonna lose his medal for sure or is it just a speculation?

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#205

Post by ChrisMcCarthy1979 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:53 am

I thought the Jury was pretty good overall.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#206

Post by mbasic » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:14 am

TheDuke wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:30 am Is Rahimov gonna lose his medal for sure or is it just a speculation?
Pretty sure he is toast. But I see his 2016 gold medal numbers have not been scratched yet on the IWF website.

They got someone else's urine/DNA with his sample and they know its not him from previous samples/ADAMS passport, etc.

99% sure Lu is getting his gold medal.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#207

Post by Cellist » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:42 pm

ChrisMcCarthy1979 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:53 am I thought the Jury was pretty good overall.
If you mean consistency and fairness, I would agree. But it’s ridiculous for spectators, especially those unfamiliar with the specifics. The problem is the rules themselves and number of officials. One level is enough, max 5 people and no press out rule so what’s overhead, controlled with feet parallel is a good lift. It would be less frustrating and much more fun to watch with more competition. And get outa here with rules from the days of iron plates; a no lift for dropping a bar with bumpers!

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#208

Post by ChrisMcCarthy1979 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:25 pm

Cellist wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:42 pm If you mean consistency and fairness, I would agree. But it’s ridiculous for spectators, especially those unfamiliar with the specifics. The problem is the rules themselves and number of officials. One level is enough, max 5 people and no press out rule so what’s overhead, controlled with feet parallel is a good lift. It would be less frustrating and much more fun to watch with more competition. And get outa here with rules from the days of iron plates; a no lift for dropping a bar with bumpers!
I don't think it's THAT ridiculous for spectators - the lockout rules are well known and very much part of what makes weightlifting Weightlifting... (shrugs)

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#209

Post by TheDuke » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:19 pm

mbasic wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:14 am Pretty sure he is toast. But I see his 2016 gold medal numbers have not been scratched yet on the IWF website.

They got someone else's urine/DNA with his sample and they know its not him from previous samples/ADAMS passport, etc.

99% sure Lu is getting his gold medal.
How about Lasha?
He did fail a drug test in 2013.

Maybe in few years he's losing his gold medals too.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#210

Post by mbasic » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:32 pm

TheDuke wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:19 pm
mbasic wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:14 am Pretty sure he is toast. But I see his 2016 gold medal numbers have not been scratched yet on the IWF website.

They got someone else's urine/DNA with his sample and they know its not him from previous samples/ADAMS passport, etc.

99% sure Lu is getting his gold medal.
How about Lasha?
He did fail a drug test in 2013.

Maybe in few years he's losing his gold medals too.
I think less likely for Lasha but sure, anything is possible and wouldn't be all *shocked face* if and when it happens.

It would appear Rahminov did the doppleganger thing....and got caught with some pretty basic dirty underhanded stuff akin to bribes, etc.
He was also busted in 2013 as well.
The 214 @ 77BW on the 2nd attempt in the Olympics to beat Lu was laughable.
The first thing out of everyone's mouth when he hit that was, "he's going to fail his drug test".

I think Lasha outright failed a test in 2013.
And Lasha has always been pretty good all along.
Small incremental gains over time.

Also I think some big thresholds were broke and/or advances were made with regard to drug testing and their protocols around 2014-2017.
....team Lasha would have seem to have figured out how to skate around those and/or are clean now *bites own lip*.

Olympics are heavily tested now from what I understand ... for about the last 3-4 quads.
You don't really see big (crazy) numbers except in a few cases.
Ex: Its not surprising Ilya iLyn hit those moster CJs at the President's cup in Russia ... and the Worlds in Almaty, KZ.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#211

Post by Skander » Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:44 am

mbasic wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:39 am
mgil wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:42 am Instant replay in any sport either has to be applied strictly or not at all.

My personal opinion is that it ruins most competitions. One, because human error in the judging is part of the system. Two, because it makes everyone watching a critic and faux expert. Three, it slows everything down and wastes time.
I think they just need to refine the system IMO:

If its 3 whites initially, no jury intervening allowed.
Same for 3 reds (although, I think there was one instance of a triple red getting overturned to 'good lift!')

If its 2/3 or 1/3 and they suspect something funny...sure, jury can look at the tape..
I'm fine with that above- when they're overruling the line judges, it makes the judges pointless.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#212

Post by Hardartery » Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:25 pm

mbasic wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:32 pm
I think less likely for Lasha but sure, anything is possible and wouldn't be all *shocked face* if and when it happens.

I think Lasha outright failed a test in 2013.
And Lasha has always been pretty good all along.
Small incremental gains over time.

Also I think some big thresholds were broke and/or advances were made with regard to drug testing and their protocols around 2014-2017.
....team Lasha would have seem to have figured out how to skate around those and/or are clean now *bites own lip*.

Olympics are heavily tested now from what I understand ... for about the last 3-4 quads.
You don't really see big (crazy) numbers except in a few cases.
Ex: Its not surprising Ilya iLyn hit those moster CJs at the President's cup in Russia ... and the Worlds in Almaty, KZ.
Failed for Winstrol. Testing is carried out by contract essentilly in many countries. It's not like the IOC sends a contingent there on a plane periodically to surprise test. The national committee is responsible, and they frequently contract out instead of having their own staff. It is not very difficult to get around testing on a lot of countries, it's window dressing unless you are somewhere that wants to follow the rules more than win.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#213

Post by 51M0N » Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:38 pm

I found the jury infuriating, why bother having judges if you are going to over rule them constantly, and sometimes over the most minor of elbow movement. Reviews should only be on split decisions, 3 whites should be a good lift.

I tried watching with my wife, and as somebody not into lifting she found that the jury, and the constant failing of lifts for the most minor of press outs, made it almost unwatchable (and take way too long). Way to fuck yourself over when your sport is hanging on by its fingernails to stay in the games to put forward a product that is barley watchable.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#214

Post by mbasic » Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:11 am

I've never ever seen any of the SS-acolytes who Olympic lift, use any traditional Olympic lift variants or accessories such as:
- snatch high pull
- muscle snatch
- push press
- press in snatch
etc

I guess its because, like leg-press, "that would be gay". I think this is a big mistake (not legpress, big mistake is not doing some targetted accessories)

I've been doing muscle snatches lately, and I think they are one of the best snatch variants a guy/gal should be doing on a regular basis.
...over power snatch by a mile. Other than snatch: heavy snatch pulls is #1 accessory; muscle sn is a strong #2 (might even be #1).

I have never liked them in the past, but finally stuck with them for a spell, and now see their utility and how they can work.
You see them performed regularly by Russian, European, South American, USA, Chinese, etc.

Muscle Snatch Checks A Lot of Boxes:

1- requires you to actively keep the bar close during and after triple extension WITH YOUR ARMS.

2- Strengthens and reinforces the idea of ACTIVELY punching up and locking out the lockout, with your elbows (no duh) AND your SHOULDERS (maybe not so no-duh).

3- A traditional muscle snatch (NOT a [no hook, no contact, no feet] MuSn) might be good for power, and better than Power Snatch. Loads have to be less than that of a power snatch if you are doing them correct and pretty. Therefore, you really have to get the bar moving, and still pop at the leg extension phase. BUUUUTTT, you cannot (or shouldn't) use your torso swinging back to generate upward bar velocity, because you need to stay standing straight vertical to be able to do the arm pull and turnover. Hip fucking the bar, and leaning way back will fuck up the "muscle" part of the muscle snatch. So the extension winds up being more vertical, and "legs", and not so hippy (bar fuck). Sure one might lean back a tad after the bar is chest high to sort do a lean back press.

4- POWER! The loads should be a lot lighter than power snatch. Peak power (and speed) goes UP as loads go down typically. You really have to get a lot of velocity on the bar to get it thru the arm phase of the lift ....with straight legs and without squatting underneath it. If I could get a sport/field athlete to do these properly, they'd be more of a RFD stimulus than power snatch/power clean.

5- Loads are light enough, these really shouldn't fatigue your legs/lower body much at all. You should be able to do them any day of the week. On tired legs even.

6- reinforces proper balance in the pull. should be easy to do, because the loads are light, but still. Once again, you can't get too wild with things if you want to stand there straight up after leg extension and complete the arm portion of the lift without stepping around.

I think #3 is where the magic really happens, and that really has nothing to do DIRECTLY with using the arms, or the "muscle" moniker of the movement. People will say that is how the muscle snatch works: trains the lifter to actively use the arms to keep the bar close, and trajectory straighter.
I THINK, because you are handicapping the movement, you can't overextend with the torso if you want to be a vertical position to then continue on with the arm turnover ....and make it look pretty (*rip's left eye twitches*), so the bar naturally goes straighter up, because hip-fuck has been minimized. It INDIRECTLY fixes your pull.

I can't speak to no-hook/no-feet/no-contact muscle snatches .... have no experience.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#215

Post by gsuchyta » Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:50 pm

@mbasic I assume you don't see anyone coming from the Rippetoan school mentioning it since they are so adamant about straight arms in the snatch and clean (the dumb towing a car with a spring vs. a chain analogy.) I think Rip's even defined the snatch as just a pull and a drop (referring to turnover and receiving the bar) so the idea of actively using your arms in a muscle snatch would not line up with either of those. Based on social media muscle snatches are pretty popular at this point, either as a warmup or standalone supplemental lift so I'd say your observation's probably spot-on.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#216

Post by 51M0N » Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:39 pm

The fact that Lasha begins his training sessions with muscle snatches probably isn't hurting their popularity these days.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#217

Post by mouse » Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:48 pm

I just saw Mattie Rogers most recent IG post and it really confirms that I don't understand shit about the rules in Olympic weightlifting...

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#218

Post by mgil » Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:59 pm

mouse wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:48 pm I just saw Mattie Rogers most recent IG post and it really confirms that I don't understand shit about the rules in Olympic weightlifting...
I looked up that lift. It wasn’t a good lift by the rules. That was pretty clear on the first pass and super clear on the second.

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#219

Post by mouse » Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:07 pm

mgil wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:59 pm
mouse wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:48 pm I just saw Mattie Rogers most recent IG post and it really confirms that I don't understand shit about the rules in Olympic weightlifting...
I looked up that lift. It wasn’t a good lift by the rules. That was pretty clear on the first pass and super clear on the second.
No kidding, but I don't get the explanation...

She's taking the shit for a walk and somehow gets two whites and a down call... but then a judge changes a white to a red because she was moving after the down call?

WAT?

Did I read her explanation wrong? Am I too stupid to comprehend the only Olympic strength sport?

I don't get how that got any sort of down call...

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Re: Controversies in Olympic Weightlifting

#220

Post by mgil » Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:24 pm

@mouse, that sounds accurate based on what I read.

But I don’t have a lot of faith in her articulating the issue clearly based on having followed her for years and seeing jibberish.

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