Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

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Robster
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Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#1

Post by Robster » Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:36 am

Has anyone ran any of Tier Three Tactical’s programs? I picked up the 12 week hypertrophy plan. Pretty high volume, 5 days a week, im debating trying it as ive been totally stuck in my training and havent put on much size in the last 4-5 years doing 3x per week lower volume stuff. Also im reading alot about Greg Nuckols’ average tonsavage it seems to be a favorite and he has a hypertrophy version i plan to take a look at. Has anyone ran that program as well?

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CheekiBreekiFitness
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#2

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:25 am

AtS 2.0 Hypertrophy is pretty good, I think. At least if your goal is getting bigger and improving work capacity (those sets of 15+ reps on squats and deadlifts can be an absolute asskicker). Now I would not take the AMRAPs to failure, maybe keep at least 1 rep in the tank.

I did not try the other program you mentioned, but I did some googling, is it the same as this ?

https://www.tierthreetactical.com/12-we ... -with-pdf/

If so I'm not sure I'd run this program, mostly because you have to work up to a 7RM (a set of 7 reps at RPE 10 as far as I understand) on squats and deadlifts, and I'm pretty sure this would fatigue me way to much to do anything useful afterwards. Also the number of sets looks a bit too much for me (and my work capacity is usually pretty good).

For curiosity, you mentioned not gaining size in the last 5 years (!). Have you been bulking and cutting the whole time ? What does your programming look like ? Unless you are already very very jacked, not making any gains in 5 years sounds surprising to me.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#3

Post by Robster » Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:48 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:25 am AtS 2.0 Hypertrophy is pretty good, I think. At least if your goal is getting bigger and improving work capacity (those sets of 15+ reps on squats and deadlifts can be an absolute asskicker). Now I would not take the AMRAPs to failure, maybe keep at least 1 rep in the tank.

I did not try the other program you mentioned, but I did some googling, is it the same as this ?

https://www.tierthreetactical.com/12-we ... -with-pdf/

If so I'm not sure I'd run this program, mostly because you have to work up to a 7RM (a set of 7 reps at RPE 10 as far as I understand) on squats and deadlifts, and I'm pretty sure this would fatigue me way to much to do anything useful afterwards. Also the number of sets looks a bit too much for me (and my work capacity is usually pretty good).

For curiosity, you mentioned not gaining size in the last 5 years (!). Have you been bulking and cutting the whole time ? What does your programming look like ? Unless you are already very very jacked, not making any gains in 5 years sounds surprising to me.
The gains are minimal if any. Ive bulked and cut like 3x. I keep going from like 165 then bulk to 180-185 then cut again and i look the same. Im like 176 right now. Some of the programs i ran were HST (id always had success with it in the past, not so much now after 4 cycles), a few of the Mindpump programs (did nothing for me) , and the Andy Baker 5x5 which is sorta like texas method. Im 6 weeks in and while ive hit some strength PR’s it has done nothing for adding muscle, in fact i feel like i lost some muscle since its so much less volume than HST. I could stick with it another 6 weeks and im sure get some nice strength gains but im more so trying to focus on hypertrophy. Tired of looking the same. And yea that program u linked is the one im talking about from tier three tactical. It does seem really high volume. Also Considering the Nuckols one or maybe eric helms 5-day or Lyle’s

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#4

Post by augeleven » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:08 am

You are probably not looking for other solutions, but maybe a program that prioritizes volume could help. Look at Bromley’s Bull Mastiff, or his Base Strength book. I’ve also heard good things about Israetel’s book.
The basic idea is to add sets instead of/in addition to increasing intensity over the mesocycle.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#5

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:24 am

Robster wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:48 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:25 am AtS 2.0 Hypertrophy is pretty good, I think. At least if your goal is getting bigger and improving work capacity (those sets of 15+ reps on squats and deadlifts can be an absolute asskicker). Now I would not take the AMRAPs to failure, maybe keep at least 1 rep in the tank.

I did not try the other program you mentioned, but I did some googling, is it the same as this ?

https://www.tierthreetactical.com/12-we ... -with-pdf/

If so I'm not sure I'd run this program, mostly because you have to work up to a 7RM (a set of 7 reps at RPE 10 as far as I understand) on squats and deadlifts, and I'm pretty sure this would fatigue me way to much to do anything useful afterwards. Also the number of sets looks a bit too much for me (and my work capacity is usually pretty good).

For curiosity, you mentioned not gaining size in the last 5 years (!). Have you been bulking and cutting the whole time ? What does your programming look like ? Unless you are already very very jacked, not making any gains in 5 years sounds surprising to me.
The gains are minimal if any. Ive bulked and cut like 3x. I keep going from like 165 then bulk to 180-185 then cut again and i look the same. Im like 176 right now. Some of the programs i ran were HST (id always had success with it in the past, not so much now after 4 cycles), a few of the Mindpump programs (did nothing for me) , and the Andy Baker 5x5 which is sorta like texas method. Im 6 weeks in and while ive hit some strength PR’s it has done nothing for adding muscle, in fact i feel like i lost some muscle since its so much less volume than HST. I could stick with it another 6 weeks and im sure get some nice strength gains but im more so trying to focus on hypertrophy. Tired of looking the same. And yea that program u linked is the one im talking about from tier three tactical. It does seem really high volume. Also Considering the Nuckols one or maybe eric helms 5-day or Lyle’s
I'd strongly doubt that you can "lose muscle" if you are lifting weights 3-4 times a week and eating at maintenance or in a surplus. I don't think it's even possible, because the amount of training volume required to maintain muscle is so low compared to the volume required to make progress.

For hypertrophy, programming is less important than for strength, so as long as you are:
- eating at a surplus
- going close to failure
- gaining strength in the 6-20 rep range
- training through a full range of motion
then you should be making gains.

Also, as @augeleven has mentionned I think that israetel's hypertrophy book is good. It does not really lay out a program but it gives you principles to manage your training pretty wekk

You mention cutting down to 165 lbs, that sounds really really low unless you are very short or obscenely lean. Are you eating enough ?

PS: for the love of god please don't do Lyle's ...

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#6

Post by Robster » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:49 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:24 am
Robster wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:48 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:25 am AtS 2.0 Hypertrophy is pretty good, I think. At least if your goal is getting bigger and improving work capacity (those sets of 15+ reps on squats and deadlifts can be an absolute asskicker). Now I would not take the AMRAPs to failure, maybe keep at least 1 rep in the tank.

I did not try the other program you mentioned, but I did some googling, is it the same as this ?

https://www.tierthreetactical.com/12-we ... -with-pdf/

If so I'm not sure I'd run this program, mostly because you have to work up to a 7RM (a set of 7 reps at RPE 10 as far as I understand) on squats and deadlifts, and I'm pretty sure this would fatigue me way to much to do anything useful afterwards. Also the number of sets looks a bit too much for me (and my work capacity is usually pretty good).

For curiosity, you mentioned not gaining size in the last 5 years (!). Have you been bulking and cutting the whole time ? What does your programming look like ? Unless you are already very very jacked, not making any gains in 5 years sounds surprising to me.
The gains are minimal if any. Ive bulked and cut like 3x. I keep going from like 165 then bulk to 180-185 then cut again and i look the same. Im like 176 right now. Some of the programs i ran were HST (id always had success with it in the past, not so much now after 4 cycles), a few of the Mindpump programs (did nothing for me) , and the Andy Baker 5x5 which is sorta like texas method. Im 6 weeks in and while ive hit some strength PR’s it has done nothing for adding muscle, in fact i feel like i lost some muscle since its so much less volume than HST. I could stick with it another 6 weeks and im sure get some nice strength gains but im more so trying to focus on hypertrophy. Tired of looking the same. And yea that program u linked is the one im talking about from tier three tactical. It does seem really high volume. Also Considering the Nuckols one or maybe eric helms 5-day or Lyle’s
I'd strongly doubt that you can "lose muscle" if you are lifting weights 3-4 times a week and eating at maintenance or in a surplus. I don't think it's even possible, because the amount of training volume required to maintain muscle is so low compared to the volume required to make progress.

For hypertrophy, programming is less important than for strength, so as long as you are:
- eating at a surplus
- going close to failure
- gaining strength in the 6-20 rep range
- training through a full range of motion
then you should be making gains.

Also, as @augeleven has mentionned I think that israetel's hypertrophy book is good. It does not really lay out a program but it gives you principles to manage your training pretty wekk

You mention cutting down to 165 lbs, that sounds really really low unless you are very short or obscenely lean. Are you eating enough ?

PS: for the love of god please don't do Lyle's ...
Whats wrong with Lyles?

And im probably not eating enough but i did go from 165-176 starting at 2100 cals and upped to 2500 and now weight stalled. Abs noticeably less defined.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#7

Post by janoycresva » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:12 am

sounds like you’re a low responder

imo, dumpster all the pseudo-powerlifter shit (no 5x5s, probably not even A2S2 hypertrophy) and do a true hypertrophy program, something with a ton of volume of exercises that have a high stimulus and lower fatigue (probably minimal barbell work)

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#8

Post by dw » Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:47 am

janoycresva wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:12 am sounds like you’re a low responder

imo, dumpster all the pseudo-powerlifter shit (no 5x5s, probably not even A2S2 hypertrophy) and do a true hypertrophy program, something with a ton of volume of exercises that have a high stimulus and lower fatigue (probably minimal barbell work)

When you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. I'm a low-responding hammer so I agree with you.

OP, I'm a little put off by the loose way you're measuring progress. You say you do bulk-cut cycles and don't seem to be progressing in terms of body composition. Are your lifts in fact going up (by any measure, not just 1 RM)? That is much easier to measure and more reliable than body composition.

If your lifts are going up at what seems like a reasonable pace during your bulks, you're making progress. The problem might just be impatience or dysmorphia.

If your lifts are basically going nowhere or going up a more slowly than you think they should, it's very likely a volume problem, which may in turn be the result of an exercise selection problem.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#9

Post by Robster » Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:15 pm

janoycresva wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:12 am sounds like you’re a low responder

imo, dumpster all the pseudo-powerlifter shit (no 5x5s, probably not even A2S2 hypertrophy) and do a true hypertrophy program, something with a ton of volume of exercises that have a high stimulus and lower fatigue (probably minimal barbell work)
Do u hav any suggestions for a solid true hypertrophy program?

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#10

Post by alphagamma » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:39 pm

If you can afford it, it is worth trying out Renaissance Programming's hypertrophy template. RP is very well respected and is considered the gold standard for these things. I tried it before and it is definitely high volume with the option to not do any of the powerlifts if thats your goal and not strength.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#11

Post by dw » Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:15 pm

Robster wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:15 pm
janoycresva wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:12 am sounds like you’re a low responder

imo, dumpster all the pseudo-powerlifter shit (no 5x5s, probably not even A2S2 hypertrophy) and do a true hypertrophy program, something with a ton of volume of exercises that have a high stimulus and lower fatigue (probably minimal barbell work)
Do u hav any suggestions for a solid true hypertrophy program?


Do you have access to a commercial gym?

If so just make one up based on the muscles you want to grow and the machines you have access to and what volume you think you need.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#12

Post by DCR » Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:13 pm

“Tactical” is the new Tap Out shirt, but I digress.

Agree with @janoycresva and @dw. Choose one compound lift (not necessarily with a barbell) and two isolation movements for each bodypart. Whatever you’re into. Set some goal for each movement (which doesn’t have to be the same for every movement and really shouldn’t be). Set of something between 8-12 reps, two sets of 6-8, whatever. Add weight when you can hit the goal and do whatever you want / can think of to get that next increment when you get stuck. More sets, less sets, back offs, supramax work, another variation, longer rests, shorter rests / increased density, change the frequency, again whatever, and mostly resist the urge to back off. If the weights are trending up over time on chosen movements (which you make sure you stick with or at least consistently move back into your routine if you’ve moved them out), you’re getting bigger.

I really should take my own advice.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#13

Post by janoycresva » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:33 pm

I think at a certain point, if you aren't that genetically gifted (you need more stimulus than average, you're poorly leveraged for most barbell compounds, your joints and tendons aren't that resilient, etc.) the combination of strength-biased programming and big barbell compounds just results in really shitty stimulus overall and leads to you wasting the periods during which you're in a caloric surplus

do as the bros do and just make that bodypart kinda sore like twice a week using some lifts that don't beat you up, give you a nasty pump, and aren't technical at all so you can just focus on trying hard instead of aligning your taint properly or w/e

don't even worry too much about progressive overload, just focus on accumulating challenging quality sets, the weight increases as a result of progress not the other way around

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#14

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:18 pm

alphagamma wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:39 pm If you can afford it, it is worth trying out Renaissance Programming's hypertrophy template. RP is very well respected and is considered the gold standard for these things. I tried it before and it is definitely high volume with the option to not do any of the powerlifts if that's your goal and not strength.
Yeah RP stuff is pretty good I think.

I believe that you can even design your own template for free (there are tutorials on how to do this).

And as @janoycresva said, it you do not care about performance on barbell exercises, you could almost get rid of them completely and be just fine. Now it's funny because I have the opposite experience as him: the barbell lifts were always very stimulative (like the bench press just grows my chest like crazy, high bar squat makes my quads super sore, the deadlift destroys my back etc), and many machines did not work very well for me (for instance machines for chest and shoulders always felt awkward). The point being you get to chose: find the exercises that give you a huge pump, make you sore the day after, and hammer those while eating to grow.

Now you mentioned eating only 2500 kcal a day and stagnating, I think you probably need to eat more (2700 kcal ?) and do a long bulk (1 year and gain 15 lbs ?). Both your performance and your weight has to go up regularly. If so you're getting bigger. I understand the ab anxiety but I think that it tends to derail people to properly bulk and build some actual size.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#15

Post by MarkKO » Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:51 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:18 pm
alphagamma wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:39 pm If you can afford it, it is worth trying out Renaissance Programming's hypertrophy template. RP is very well respected and is considered the gold standard for these things. I tried it before and it is definitely high volume with the option to not do any of the powerlifts if that's your goal and not strength.
Yeah RP stuff is pretty good I think.

I believe that you can even design your own template for free (there are tutorials on how to do this).

And as @janoycresva said, it you do not care about performance on barbell exercises, you could almost get rid of them completely and be just fine. Now it's funny because I have the opposite experience as him: the barbell lifts were always very stimulative (like the bench press just grows my chest like crazy, high bar squat makes my quads super sore, the deadlift destroys my back etc), and many machines did not work very well for me (for instance machines for chest and shoulders always felt awkward). The point being you get to chose: find the exercises that give you a huge pump, make you sore the day after, and hammer those while eating to grow.

Now you mentioned eating only 2500 kcal a day and stagnating, I think you probably need to eat more (2700 kcal ?) and do a long bulk (1 year and gain 15 lbs ?). Both your performance and your weight has to go up regularly. If so you're getting bigger. I understand the ab anxiety but I think that it tends to derail people to properly bulk and build some actual size.
I'll just chime in with my thoughts about the calories.

As soon as as I saw 2100 to 2500 calories and the mention of fading abs the question of why OP isn't progressing or growing was answered.

At 165-175 lbs, unless OP is pretty short we're talking about someone really kind of skinny which I think someone else touched on.

An average height male in that weight range is small in terms of people who lift weights, taking average to mean the US average which is five feet nine inches. Someone at that weight with visible abs isn't just small, but lean too. So if you figure that person is sitting around 15 per cent bodyfat or thereabouts 2500 calories is in the mid range of maintenance for their lean mass, with the range being 2300 to 2800 or so. For a male to look muscular at that kind of weight they can't be much taller than five feet five or six inches. That isn't to say OP doesn't look good. He probably looks OK, just not as muscular as he reasonably would like to be after lifting weights for a few years.

OP has been eating at what are probably low maintenance levels. It's very, very difficult to grow any appreciable amount of muscle that way even if your training is absolutely spot on. Even taking calories to the top end of that maintenance range around the 3000 calorie mark would probably be enough if there was enough stimulus. How you get that stimulus doesn't matter, it just needs to be sufficient.

The only problem is that you have to accept *some* softening of your physique while growing. It doesn't have to be too much but if you're going to grow you'll probably need to accept that your abs will fade some.

Personally I think they are a good indication of when to end a bulking phase. When you notice your abs are that little bit too faint, it's time to cut down a bit.

What can be a bit of a mental barrier is that at times it is a lot harder to gain size without losing too much body composition when you don't have a whole lot of lean mass to begin with. It's one of those unfortunate situations where you haven't quite got enough muscle to help you keep a little leaner and you also can't quite handle the weights that will really drive growth. You almost have to accept that your first go around the bulk/cut cycle will have you getting kind of sloppy looking at the end around your middle. The payoff is that elsewhere you'll have added a good amount of mass that becomes more visible when you cut down. That will make the next bulk a little easier in terms of maintaining a degree of body composition.

It also probably helps quite a bit to take a few months between each cycle to maintain at your cut weight to let your body adjust to that new body composition with the added muscle.

Personally I look at it along the lines of nine to 18 months of slowly gaining; then maybe three to four months of cutting back to regain your initial body composition; and lastly three to six months maintaining at that new set point. The whole time you're probably working within maybe a 1000 calorie range. For example, your cutting calories might be between 3000 and 3300, maintenance between 3500 and 3800 and your bulking calories around 4000.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#16

Post by Robster » Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:10 am

MarkKO wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:51 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:18 pm
alphagamma wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:39 pm If you can afford it, it is worth trying out Renaissance Programming's hypertrophy template. RP is very well respected and is considered the gold standard for these things. I tried it before and it is definitely high volume with the option to not do any of the powerlifts if that's your goal and not strength.
Yeah RP stuff is pretty good I think.

I believe that you can even design your own template for free (there are tutorials on how to do this).

And as @janoycresva said, it you do not care about performance on barbell exercises, you could almost get rid of them completely and be just fine. Now it's funny because I have the opposite experience as him: the barbell lifts were always very stimulative (like the bench press just grows my chest like crazy, high bar squat makes my quads super sore, the deadlift destroys my back etc), and many machines did not work very well for me (for instance machines for chest and shoulders always felt awkward). The point being you get to chose: find the exercises that give you a huge pump, make you sore the day after, and hammer those while eating to grow.

Now you mentioned eating only 2500 kcal a day and stagnating, I think you probably need to eat more (2700 kcal ?) and do a long bulk (1 year and gain 15 lbs ?). Both your performance and your weight has to go up regularly. If so you're getting bigger. I understand the ab anxiety but I think that it tends to derail people to properly bulk and build some actual size.
I'll just chime in with my thoughts about the calories.

As soon as as I saw 2100 to 2500 calories and the mention of fading abs the question of why OP isn't progressing or growing was answered.

At 165-175 lbs, unless OP is pretty short we're talking about someone really kind of skinny which I think someone else touched on.

An average height male in that weight range is small in terms of people who lift weights, taking average to mean the US average which is five feet nine inches. Someone at that weight with visible abs isn't just small, but lean too. So if you figure that person is sitting around 15 per cent bodyfat or thereabouts 2500 calories is in the mid range of maintenance for their lean mass, with the range being 2300 to 2800 or so. For a male to look muscular at that kind of weight they can't be much taller than five feet five or six inches. That isn't to say OP doesn't look good. He probably looks OK, just not as muscular as he reasonably would like to be after lifting weights for a few years.

OP has been eating at what are probably low maintenance levels. It's very, very difficult to grow any appreciable amount of muscle that way even if your training is absolutely spot on. Even taking calories to the top end of that maintenance range around the 3000 calorie mark would probably be enough if there was enough stimulus. How you get that stimulus doesn't matter, it just needs to be sufficient.

The only problem is that you have to accept *some* softening of your physique while growing. It doesn't have to be too much but if you're going to grow you'll probably need to accept that your abs will fade some.

Personally I think they are a good indication of when to end a bulking phase. When you notice your abs are that little bit too faint, it's time to cut down a bit.

What can be a bit of a mental barrier is that at times it is a lot harder to gain size without losing too much body composition when you don't have a whole lot of lean mass to begin with. It's one of those unfortunate situations where you haven't quite got enough muscle to help you keep a little leaner and you also can't quite handle the weights that will really drive growth. You almost have to accept that your first go around the bulk/cut cycle will have you getting kind of sloppy looking at the end around your middle. The payoff is that elsewhere you'll have added a good amount of mass that becomes more visible when you cut down. That will make the next bulk a little easier in terms of maintaining a degree of body composition.

It also probably helps quite a bit to take a few months between each cycle to maintain at your cut weight to let your body adjust to that new body composition with the added muscle.

Personally I look at it along the lines of nine to 18 months of slowly gaining; then maybe three to four months of cutting back to regain your initial body composition; and lastly three to six months maintaining at that new set point. The whole time you're probably working within maybe a 1000 calorie range. For example, your cutting calories might be between 3000 and 3300, maintenance between 3500 and 3800 and your bulking calories around 4000.
Yea i definitely should increase cals since ive stalled the past month or so. Im just so worried about increasing too much, getting too fat, then having to go on another miserable cut. I lost so much size and strength on my last cut ppl were asking me if i still even lifted weights and if i was sick or something. Completely mentally screwed me up. All the calculators had my maintenance around 2400-2500. But i was slowly very slowly seeing the scale go up even eating that much, up until these pasr few weeks. So yea its a good time to increase i guess. My abs are still a little visible tho and i really dont wanna cut again anytime soon. I was hoping i could bulk to at least around 185-190 without getting too fat, then do a more focused intense cut rather than the long drawn out miserable one i did last

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#17

Post by MarkKO » Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:53 pm

Robster wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:10 am
MarkKO wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:51 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:18 pm
alphagamma wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:39 pm If you can afford it, it is worth trying out Renaissance Programming's hypertrophy template. RP is very well respected and is considered the gold standard for these things. I tried it before and it is definitely high volume with the option to not do any of the powerlifts if that's your goal and not strength.
Yeah RP stuff is pretty good I think.

I believe that you can even design your own template for free (there are tutorials on how to do this).

And as @janoycresva said, it you do not care about performance on barbell exercises, you could almost get rid of them completely and be just fine. Now it's funny because I have the opposite experience as him: the barbell lifts were always very stimulative (like the bench press just grows my chest like crazy, high bar squat makes my quads super sore, the deadlift destroys my back etc), and many machines did not work very well for me (for instance machines for chest and shoulders always felt awkward). The point being you get to chose: find the exercises that give you a huge pump, make you sore the day after, and hammer those while eating to grow.

Now you mentioned eating only 2500 kcal a day and stagnating, I think you probably need to eat more (2700 kcal ?) and do a long bulk (1 year and gain 15 lbs ?). Both your performance and your weight has to go up regularly. If so you're getting bigger. I understand the ab anxiety but I think that it tends to derail people to properly bulk and build some actual size.
I'll just chime in with my thoughts about the calories.

As soon as as I saw 2100 to 2500 calories and the mention of fading abs the question of why OP isn't progressing or growing was answered.

At 165-175 lbs, unless OP is pretty short we're talking about someone really kind of skinny which I think someone else touched on.

An average height male in that weight range is small in terms of people who lift weights, taking average to mean the US average which is five feet nine inches. Someone at that weight with visible abs isn't just small, but lean too. So if you figure that person is sitting around 15 per cent bodyfat or thereabouts 2500 calories is in the mid range of maintenance for their lean mass, with the range being 2300 to 2800 or so. For a male to look muscular at that kind of weight they can't be much taller than five feet five or six inches. That isn't to say OP doesn't look good. He probably looks OK, just not as muscular as he reasonably would like to be after lifting weights for a few years.

OP has been eating at what are probably low maintenance levels. It's very, very difficult to grow any appreciable amount of muscle that way even if your training is absolutely spot on. Even taking calories to the top end of that maintenance range around the 3000 calorie mark would probably be enough if there was enough stimulus. How you get that stimulus doesn't matter, it just needs to be sufficient.

The only problem is that you have to accept *some* softening of your physique while growing. It doesn't have to be too much but if you're going to grow you'll probably need to accept that your abs will fade some.

Personally I think they are a good indication of when to end a bulking phase. When you notice your abs are that little bit too faint, it's time to cut down a bit.

What can be a bit of a mental barrier is that at times it is a lot harder to gain size without losing too much body composition when you don't have a whole lot of lean mass to begin with. It's one of those unfortunate situations where you haven't quite got enough muscle to help you keep a little leaner and you also can't quite handle the weights that will really drive growth. You almost have to accept that your first go around the bulk/cut cycle will have you getting kind of sloppy looking at the end around your middle. The payoff is that elsewhere you'll have added a good amount of mass that becomes more visible when you cut down. That will make the next bulk a little easier in terms of maintaining a degree of body composition.

It also probably helps quite a bit to take a few months between each cycle to maintain at your cut weight to let your body adjust to that new body composition with the added muscle.

Personally I look at it along the lines of nine to 18 months of slowly gaining; then maybe three to four months of cutting back to regain your initial body composition; and lastly three to six months maintaining at that new set point. The whole time you're probably working within maybe a 1000 calorie range. For example, your cutting calories might be between 3000 and 3300, maintenance between 3500 and 3800 and your bulking calories around 4000.
Yea i definitely should increase cals since ive stalled the past month or so. Im just so worried about increasing too much, getting too fat, then having to go on another miserable cut. I lost so much size and strength on my last cut ppl were asking me if i still even lifted weights and if i was sick or something. Completely mentally screwed me up. All the calculators had my maintenance around 2400-2500. But i was slowly very slowly seeing the scale go up even eating that much, up until these pasr few weeks. So yea its a good time to increase i guess. My abs are still a little visible tho and i really dont wanna cut again anytime soon. I was hoping i could bulk to at least around 185-190 without getting too fat, then do a more focused intense cut rather than the long drawn out miserable one i did last
You could always try doing shorter gaining phases with mini cuts between them. I know RP recommends that in some circumstances.

You shouldn't be losing too much size on a cut unless what you gained wasn't lean mass. Sometimes what can help is maintaining as much training intensity and volume as you can manage while you diet. You won't build anything, but it'll encourage your body to hold on to muscle you have.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#18

Post by OrderInChaos » Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:44 pm

augeleven wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:08 am You are probably not looking for other solutions, but maybe a program that prioritizes volume could help. Look at Bromley’s Bull Mastiff, or his Base Strength book. I’ve also heard good things about Israetel’s book.
The basic idea is to add sets instead of/in addition to increasing intensity over the mesocycle.
If you respond well to compounds or simply just prefer working those to a pure bro routine, Bullmastiff and closely related programs from this book like “70s power lifter” are top notch. Volumizing can work damn well, and accruing lots of volume on the secondary compounds served me well. You can find them both here free https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/bullmastiff

https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/70s-powerlifter

Bill Wong’s program is also damn good, and free. https://www.boostcamp.app/bill-wong/4-d ... ate-volume

This by Bromley could be stellar too: https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/ ... ypertrophy

The way Bromley does wavy volume makes the week 1s feel eminently doable and the week 3s feel truly difficult - I like the dichotomy myself. Worth trying any of those and playing with modifications as you see fit.

ETA:

This article from Baker has some useful ideas for training splits for hypertrophy: https://www.andybaker.com/the-evolution ... pertrophy/

He also posted a glimpse of his KSC power building method. I think it’s not a bad system at all. Scroll down a bit here: https://www.andybaker.com/a-plan-for-an ... -december/

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#19

Post by perman » Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:12 am

Robster wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:10 am Yea i definitely should increase cals since ive stalled the past month or so. Im just so worried about increasing too much, getting too fat, then having to go on another miserable cut. I lost so much size and strength on my last cut ppl were asking me if i still even lifted weights and if i was sick or something. Completely mentally screwed me up. All the calculators had my maintenance around 2400-2500. But i was slowly very slowly seeing the scale go up even eating that much, up until these pasr few weeks. So yea its a good time to increase i guess. My abs are still a little visible tho and i really dont wanna cut again anytime soon. I was hoping i could bulk to at least around 185-190 without getting too fat, then do a more focused intense cut rather than the long drawn out miserable one i did last
Speaking as a guy who struggles to ever get a six-pack (Rip is just misleading when he says it's easier to lose fat than gain muscle, because it's also harder to lose weight than gain weight for most folks), gaining muscles too slowly sounds like a better problem (at least health wise) than what a lot of muscled lifters with guts who struggle to ever get thin have. So I wouldn't sweat the slow progress, you'll find something that works, and I also agree with whoever said you probably have gained muscles.

I don't think you're completely wrong to fear fat gain, but I also don't think you need to expend too much emotion on this since cutting and bulking can be treated purely mathematically. 0.5 kg = 3500 kcals approximately. Cuts are usually recommend to be in the 0.5-1% bw weekly range, while bulks should probably be slower, more like 0.5% bw per month if you can. Just titrate daily calories down or up by 100 kcals based on whether you're meeting those goals.

If you're actually able to consistently follow calories, you're probably better off than a lot of lifters who struggle with diet compliance in the long term.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#20

Post by Robster » Sun Apr 02, 2023 12:37 pm

OrderInChaos wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:44 pm
augeleven wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:08 am You are probably not looking for other solutions, but maybe a program that prioritizes volume could help. Look at Bromley’s Bull Mastiff, or his Base Strength book. I’ve also heard good things about Israetel’s book.
The basic idea is to add sets instead of/in addition to increasing intensity over the mesocycle.
If you respond well to compounds or simply just prefer working those to a pure bro routine, Bullmastiff and closely related programs from this book like “70s power lifter” are top notch. Volumizing can work damn well, and accruing lots of volume on the secondary compounds served me well. You can find them both here free https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/bullmastiff

https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/70s-powerlifter

Bill Wong’s program is also damn good, and free. https://www.boostcamp.app/bill-wong/4-d ... ate-volume

This by Bromley could be stellar too: https://www.boostcamp.app/alex-bromley/ ... ypertrophy

The way Bromley does wavy volume makes the week 1s feel eminently doable and the week 3s feel truly difficult - I like the dichotomy myself. Worth trying any of those and playing with modifications as you see fit.

ETA:

This article from Baker has some useful ideas for training splits for hypertrophy: https://www.andybaker.com/the-evolution ... pertrophy/

He also posted a glimpse of his KSC power building method. I think it’s not a bad system at all. Scroll down a bit here: https://www.andybaker.com/a-plan-for-an ... -december/
What do u think about Geoff Schofields Ravage routine?

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