Protein Confession

[michael]

So your first year of training you add 16 pounds of muscle.
Your second year you add 8.
Third year 4.
All the rest 2.

Do you think you need the same amount of protein for your entire career?

[cwd]

@michael, the accumulated muscle requires some ongoing protein for maintenance and repair, right?

Maybe in year 1, you spend 20% of your 1g/lb on maintenance, 80% on growth.
Year 2, 40% on maintenance, 60% on growth.
etc

[jake]

@michael Do you have a carb and fat confession to go with that, and a total calories per day average? Also, I wonder if you actually tracked this or were just guessing based off meat/whey consumption. That would be useful to know. But that's cool either way.

General question to the forum: I thought 20grams was about the minimum to trigger MPS, and that really it's all about the leucine content of the protein, so theoretically someone eating less high-leucine containing protein per day could do better than someone eating more low-leucine containing protein per day (e.g. someone getting 100 grams from chicken vs. someone getting 150 grams from pea protein or something).

[broseph]

It's not really about turning ALL your dietary protein into muscle tissue anyway. It's about inducing bouts of muscle protein synthesis using a bolus of consumed amino acids.

I'll bet a pretty good portion of 200 g protein/day just ends up getting used to make ATP. But eating 40 g of quality protein 5 times a day (or something close to that) is "most ideal" for stimulating muscle protein synthesis via that particular pathway.

Or something like that.

[broseph]

General question to the forum: I thought 20grams was about the minimum to trigger MPS, and that really it's all about the leucine content of the protein, so theoretically someone eating less high-leucine containing protein per day could do better than someone eating more low-leucine containing protein per day (e.g. someone getting 100 grams from chicken vs. someone getting 150 grams from pea protein or something).

Without looking up amino acid profiles of common protein sources, I thought it was more like 30 grams to hit that magic leucine number.

For sake of argument though, I think if you can get your leucine and accompanying BCAA's with a smaller dose of a high quality protein, than yes, you "need less" protein.

I feel like this question has been asked of Jordan on the other forum a few times, and he always just talks about trace proteins and how if you eat 20 g protien from chicken in a meal, don't forget about ALL THOSE TRACE PROTEINS from fats and carbs, which supposedly add up to a bunch more protein and you still end up getting ~200g/day... But if you track your macros you see there's really not that much trace protein (hence "trace") and you can ~3g leucine/meal and still only get ~120 g protein/day TOTAL. /rant

[jake]

Yeah the trace protein thing...not sure. If you eat a lot of pasta, you'll get lots of non-animal based protein which probably doesn't have as much leucine, so 'not optimal.' But all this stuff seems to kinda just be fine tuning, or more important if you are trying to reach a target weight or something. For example, I used to eat 2lbs of chicken and 1lb of vegetables (TRACE PROTEINS) in one sitting for lunch everyday, I've since broken this up into three servings and dropped to about 1.75lbs of chicken everyday. I haven't noticed a difference attributable to this, performance or weight wise, though I'm not trying to do gain or lose weight at the moment.

[broseph]

All the trace protein stuff probably sticks in my craw because I don’t eat much. Never have. 2lbs chicken + 1lb veggies sounds absolutely insane to me. Like, that’s more than I eat in a day.

So most of my foods end up being fairly calorically dense. Which I think tends to make the foods more “pure” carbs or fat or protein.

[hector]

For most of my lifting career I was getting about 100G protein per day. Plus whatever you get in "trace" proteins.
This past year I made an effort, most days, to get 150+ g/protein. Had the best lifting of my life this past year.
IN retrospect, I probably could have pushed my novice program much further had I paid attention to diet and kept protein consumption higher.

[MattimusMaximus]

Quality or source of protein is extremely important also. Leucine serving of 3-4g per meal consumed is optimal for MPS I believe. If most of your protein comes from bread and plants then that would be considered "inferior" sources of protein because Leucine content is not adequate for MPS. If most of your protein is coming from eggs, whey, lean meats, etc. then you can get away with less overall protein I'd wager because Leucine is much higher.

Without reading every post made on this topic, a brief skim shows me that others have said similar things to what I've written except for the 3-4g of Leucine... I don't have any links for that but I believe it was Layne Norton that I got that information from many moons ago. It's worked well for me and I consume an average of 150g per day mostly from the higher quality sources I alluded to above. Could I have better results from more protein? Maybe, but I'm not too concerned with competitive numbers atm.

[Wilhelm]

I break mine up into 3 meals, 4+ hours apart each.

There is evidence showing plasma leucine levels remain elevated enough to prevent another supposedly threshhold dose of protein from initiating another bout of MPS much before that amount of time.

From a Layne Norton article - (the paper he cites is worth a look)
The paper he cites - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278544/
...What is interesting about our findings is that while protein synthesis had returned to baseline after 3 hours, plasma amino acid levels were still elevated above baseline and plasma leucine was elevated almost 3x above baseline! Accordingly, the phosphoryation of the initiation factors 4E-BP1 & p70S6K followed plasma leucine levels and maintained elevated levels of phosphorylation at 3 hours (phosphorylation of these initiation factors is required to start the process of protein synthesis). Thus it appears that the signal to maintain elevated protein synthesis is still being ‘transmitted’ but for some reason protein synthesis becomes refractory after a certain period of time. This is also supported by data from Bohe et al which showed that the duration of protein synthesis in response to an infusion of essential amino acids was only 2 hours long even though the essential amino acids were infused for six hours! It is unlikely that eating another meal 2-3 hours after the first meal would be sufficient to induce another rise in protein synthesis since amino acid/leucine levels are already elevated anyway. It may therefore be more useful to consume larger amounts of protein at a meal and wait longer between protein doses than the typical 2-3 hours that is typically recommended in the bodybuilding community.
*************

I get slightly less than 1 gram per pound body weight daily.
Sometimes i'll actually hit 200 grams. Mostly i come in around 192 to 196
This in three sittings, no snacks.
There is information out there that could support lower levels for growth, but i just want to max out, and that number for most people who are actively exercising to build muscle, is .8 gram per pound body weight as far as i could see by sifting through basically all the opinions i could find before giving up and calling it good.
More isn't going to hurt you. iirc, the outlier numbers went up to past 1 to maybe even 1.5 grams.
I think those were "normal" people too though. Not Eddie Hall etc...
I'm not working so hard and am not so massive to need more was what i concluded.


I also take my D3 and Magnesium glycinate with my first two meals, and a mag with the third. That enhances/is used in MPS. Creatine has a stimulating effect on MPS as well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2109188/
I dose my creatine mostly in the morning, (3 grams) but i put 1/8 rounded tsp in my whey shakes as well.

[DirtyRed]

How much do you weigh?

I've heard 120 floated as a number. 30g 4x/day spaced 3-5 hours apart to trigger muscle protein synthesis. There's an article on Nuckols's site about this.

No part of this doesn't sound like broscience.

[Wilhelm]

How much do you weigh?

I've heard 120 floated as a number. 30g 4x/day spaced 3-5 hours apart to trigger muscle protein synthesis. There's an article on Nuckols's site about this.

No part of this doesn't sound like broscience.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278544/
I think 3 hours cuts it too close.

[BenM]

How much do you weigh?

I've heard 120 floated as a number. 30g 4x/day spaced 3-5 hours apart to trigger muscle protein synthesis. There's an article on Nuckols's site about this.

No part of this doesn't sound like broscience.

It might sound like that but it’s not. Schoenfeld recommends this to optimise MPS for example. Pretty sure he’d know.

[michael]

Eat three well spaced meals with 30gm of high quality protein per day.
Everything else is diminishing returns.

According to the label on Jordan's GainzZz-Rx-Whey, 20gm is enough to drive protein synthesis in almost anyone.

[KyleSchuant]

While on my Novice Linear Progression I consumed less than 100gm of protein a day.

Questions:

1. What lifts did you get to? It's not clear from your log here.

This is important because it's one thing to "finish a novice LP" with a 200lb squat, and another to finish it with a 400lb squat.

2. did you have a previous training history of any kind?

This is important because PPST3e's "example of a well-executed novice linear progression" is of a former football player; squatting 400lbs when you did it (or at least could have done it as a healthy 20yo with a 30" vertical jump) 20 years ago is one thing, doing it for the first time at 40-something when you've just been a desk jockey your whole life is another. The example is not the majority of people who show up in a gym.

Note: I don't have any particular horse in this race. I'm just curious. I just tell my lifters to start with the government healthy eating guidelines, and if they get stuck in the weights, well usually they're not following those guidelines, but if they are and they're stuck, add some protein-rich food. If they get stuck again, add more. And so on. Steer as you go, so to speak.

Most of the mainstream talk about the topic is pulled in two directions. The first is the general social trend of wanting to be skinny and weak and detoxing and all that crap, they argue for low-protein; the second is supplement companies and guys who think you're not a real man unless you eat a whole roast bullock every day for breakfast washed down with whisky, they argue for high-protein. In both cases the advice is based not on experience or science, but posing and ideology.

[michael]

Questions:

1. What lifts did you get to? It's not clear from your log here.

This is important because it's one thing to "finish a novice LP" with a 200lb squat, and another to finish it with a 400lb squat.

2. did you have a previous training history of any kind?

1) 365x5x3 on the squat, 225x5x3 on the bench. Deadlift was 315x5? Press was 135x5x3? Not sure on those.
2) Just bro stuff in college. No squats, no deadlifts.

Your approach sounds good.

When I lower my calories, I do add more protein. Also if I was just stuck in my lifts adding protein wouldn't be a bad idea.

Correction:
Looked at my logs. Deadlift was 350x5 and press was 155x3x3. My press hasn't improved much since then

[KyleSchuant]

It sounds like you may be a large-framed person who should have done a lot more sports when younger. I've trained a few of them. Most recently I've two women in my gym who in their first 3 months squatted 100+kg, which is very unusual for women. But these two women are both large-framed (broad shoulders, thicker wrists than many their height, etc) and did 1-2 different sports, though never very seriously.

Neither of them has paid much attention to their protein consumption, but they do eat a lot, and eat meat. Going on their description of their food, they'd get 130-160g of protein a day.

One of them made a vid, it shows her first deadlift work sets and the little maxout session she had after her first three months just before a holiday. 50 to 135kg is unusual; it's usually more like 40 to 80.

People like this are easy to train. Used to physical exertion, large-framed, good bodily awareness, eat lots of good food (they may or may not supplement it with crap on top, this affects body composition but at least as a novice doesn't make a difference to strength).

I wouldn't be surprised if you were underestimating your protein consumption a bit by just looking at the biggest sources of it in meat and dairy. Looking at what most people eat, usually they get 30g or so from miscellaneous smaller sources, a bit of milk in their coffee, the butter on their toast, a few grams here or there in the fruit, nuts and vegetables they eat, etc.

As well, don't underestimate the impact of the "bro stuff". In the first place it gets you used to the idea of physical exertion, which is something that comes as a rude surprise to many, and contributes to the many who bail within 3 months. Secondly it does seem to be a physical preparation for more serious training. If I get a guy who's done bro stuff for a year or more, that's good for - by the end of his first three months - at least another 20kg on his squat, 10 on his bench and 30 on his deadlift. Gymbro stuff is like heavy petting, it's what you do when you don't know how to fuck. But if you spend a long time on the foreplay the fuck will be amazing.

[michael]

I wouldn't be surprised if you were underestimating your protein consumption a bit by just looking at the biggest sources of it in meat and dairy. Looking at what most people eat, usually they get 30g or so from miscellaneous smaller sources, a bit of milk in their coffee, the butter on their toast, a few grams here or there in the fruit, nuts and vegetables they eat, etc.

Probably. I don't count the tag-along proteins in grains and vegetables.

[d0uevenlift]

While on my Novice Linear Progression I consumed less than 100gm of protein a day.

I didn't die. I made all kinds of gainzzz.

I still don't get more than 100gm of protein per day, and my lifts are still creeping upwards.

100gm of protein a day is probably enough.

Excellent, I will now ignore all of the scientific research on this subject in light of your incontrovertible anecdotal experience.

This just saved me $200/month on whey protein and chicken breasts!

[platypus]

How much do you weigh?

I've heard 120 floated as a number. 30g 4x/day spaced 3-5 hours apart to trigger muscle protein synthesis. There's an article on Nuckols's site about this.

No part of this doesn't sound like broscience.

I'm really skeptical as to the importance of nutrient timing.

Of course, my diet is usually garbage and I have the physique and lifts that you'd expect from a garbage diet, so my experience doesn't leave me with much to go on.