Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

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houzi
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#61

Post by houzi » Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm

DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.

MarkKO
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#62

Post by MarkKO » Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:35 pm

houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
Doesn't surprise me that you're next up to that list. Nice work.

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DCR
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#63

Post by DCR » Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm

houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#64

Post by MarkKO » Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:48 pm

DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Me too, although frustrating is probably more accurate in my case simply because I can hold my own in the squat and deadlift well enough but my bench lags.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#65

Post by houzi » Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:03 pm

DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Currently circling the drain haha! Ive had a quad injury that has lead to lower training being a bit stop and start the past 8 months, while benching has been mostly constant. Best ever Squat and DL 1RMs (that I actually hit last May) are 237.5kg Sq, and 250kg DL. At that time my best bench was 167.5kg. However since then Ive also hit 240kg x3 DL, if thats worth anything.
But yes, im very much built to bench: average to short arms, long-ish torso. I have quite long legs, so my DL leverages arent great, plus flat feet and some small muscle imbalances in my legs have lead to some slower lower progress.
Im also ex-military so i have done A LOT of push ups, and that movement plane feels very natural. Bench feels like my most technically proficient lift.
I also find it quite interesting the effects different limb lengths and leverages that can result in the different spread of SBD ability.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#66

Post by MarkKO » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:17 pm

houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:03 pm
DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Currently circling the drain haha! Ive had a quad injury that has lead to lower training being a bit stop and start the past 8 months, while benching has been mostly constant. Best ever Squat and DL 1RMs (that I actually hit last May) are 237.5kg Sq, and 250kg DL. At that time my best bench was 167.5kg. However since then Ive also hit 240kg x3 DL, if thats worth anything.
But yes, im very much built to bench: average to short arms, long-ish torso. I have quite long legs, so my DL leverages arent great, plus flat feet and some small muscle imbalances in my legs have lead to some slower lower progress.
Im also ex-military so i have done A LOT of push ups, and that movement plane feels very natural. Bench feels like my most technically proficient lift.
I also find it quite interesting the effects different limb lengths and leverages that can result in the different spread of SBD ability.
The whole built to... issue is weird because it doesn't always pan out exactly as you'd expect.

I'm NOT built to deadlift (medium arms, long back) and arguably better built to bench than deadlift for certain BUT my bench doesn't remotely reflect this and I think it's because for the first maybe three years of training for powerlifting I didn't know how to train my upper body properly.

Add to that the initial years I spent training BEFORE powerlifting focused enormously on my legs and lower back and I'm still playing catchup on bench while my squat has pretty much always just gone up if I train it and train my legs although my deadlift has had times where it definitely stagnated but I've usually been able to get it moving.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#67

Post by GeoffBUK » Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:01 am

On the subject of achievable totals, I found this video interesting, maybe because even a Genetic disgrace low responder like me can beat these numbers, I suppose again it comes down to the training population Dr Mike mentions


Just to clarify, by 'these numbers' I mean the numbers mike states for his non gifted clients, 185lb bench etc, obvs not the 3/4/5

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DCR
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#68

Post by DCR » Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:39 am

MarkKO wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:17 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:03 pm
DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Currently circling the drain haha! Ive had a quad injury that has lead to lower training being a bit stop and start the past 8 months, while benching has been mostly constant. Best ever Squat and DL 1RMs (that I actually hit last May) are 237.5kg Sq, and 250kg DL. At that time my best bench was 167.5kg. However since then Ive also hit 240kg x3 DL, if thats worth anything.
But yes, im very much built to bench: average to short arms, long-ish torso. I have quite long legs, so my DL leverages arent great, plus flat feet and some small muscle imbalances in my legs have lead to some slower lower progress.
Im also ex-military so i have done A LOT of push ups, and that movement plane feels very natural. Bench feels like my most technically proficient lift.
I also find it quite interesting the effects different limb lengths and leverages that can result in the different spread of SBD ability.
The whole built to... issue is weird because it doesn't always pan out exactly as you'd expect.

I'm NOT built to deadlift (medium arms, long back) and arguably better built to bench than deadlift for certain BUT my bench doesn't remotely reflect this and I think it's because for the first maybe three years of training for powerlifting I didn't know how to train my upper body properly.

Add to that the initial years I spent training BEFORE powerlifting focused enormously on my legs and lower back and I'm still playing catchup on bench while my squat has pretty much always just gone up if I train it and train my legs although my deadlift has had times where it definitely stagnated but I've usually been able to get it moving.
Yes, I think too many other factors including, as you noted, training history and specifically where one concentrated early on. I’m short and have long arms. I should be awesome at DLing and suck at bench. Yet here are my ratios:

Bench to squat .8310
Bench to DL .7195

@houzi’s is nearly identical in bench to DL (he’s much stronger, of course):

Bench to squat .7562
Bench to DL .7184

@MarkKO, these are yours:

Bench to squat .5647
Bench to DL .5169

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#69

Post by MarkKO » Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:53 pm

DCR wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:39 am
MarkKO wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:17 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:03 pm
DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Currently circling the drain haha! Ive had a quad injury that has lead to lower training being a bit stop and start the past 8 months, while benching has been mostly constant. Best ever Squat and DL 1RMs (that I actually hit last May) are 237.5kg Sq, and 250kg DL. At that time my best bench was 167.5kg. However since then Ive also hit 240kg x3 DL, if thats worth anything.
But yes, im very much built to bench: average to short arms, long-ish torso. I have quite long legs, so my DL leverages arent great, plus flat feet and some small muscle imbalances in my legs have lead to some slower lower progress.
Im also ex-military so i have done A LOT of push ups, and that movement plane feels very natural. Bench feels like my most technically proficient lift.
I also find it quite interesting the effects different limb lengths and leverages that can result in the different spread of SBD ability.
The whole built to... issue is weird because it doesn't always pan out exactly as you'd expect.

I'm NOT built to deadlift (medium arms, long back) and arguably better built to bench than deadlift for certain BUT my bench doesn't remotely reflect this and I think it's because for the first maybe three years of training for powerlifting I didn't know how to train my upper body properly.

Add to that the initial years I spent training BEFORE powerlifting focused enormously on my legs and lower back and I'm still playing catchup on bench while my squat has pretty much always just gone up if I train it and train my legs although my deadlift has had times where it definitely stagnated but I've usually been able to get it moving.
Yes, I think too many other factors including, as you noted, training history and specifically where one concentrated early on. I’m short and have long arms. I should be awesome at DLing and suck at bench. Yet here are my ratios:

Bench to squat .8310
Bench to DL .7195

@houzi’s is nearly identical in bench to DL (he’s much stronger, of course):

Bench to squat .7562
Bench to DL .7184

@MarkKO, these are yours:

Bench to squat .5647
Bench to DL .5169
That is at once interesting and infuriating. It just highlights how much work I've got to do on bench.

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DCR
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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#70

Post by DCR » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:29 pm

MarkKO wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:53 pm
DCR wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:39 am
MarkKO wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:17 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:03 pm
DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Currently circling the drain haha! Ive had a quad injury that has lead to lower training being a bit stop and start the past 8 months, while benching has been mostly constant. Best ever Squat and DL 1RMs (that I actually hit last May) are 237.5kg Sq, and 250kg DL. At that time my best bench was 167.5kg. However since then Ive also hit 240kg x3 DL, if thats worth anything.
But yes, im very much built to bench: average to short arms, long-ish torso. I have quite long legs, so my DL leverages arent great, plus flat feet and some small muscle imbalances in my legs have lead to some slower lower progress.
Im also ex-military so i have done A LOT of push ups, and that movement plane feels very natural. Bench feels like my most technically proficient lift.
I also find it quite interesting the effects different limb lengths and leverages that can result in the different spread of SBD ability.
The whole built to... issue is weird because it doesn't always pan out exactly as you'd expect.

I'm NOT built to deadlift (medium arms, long back) and arguably better built to bench than deadlift for certain BUT my bench doesn't remotely reflect this and I think it's because for the first maybe three years of training for powerlifting I didn't know how to train my upper body properly.

Add to that the initial years I spent training BEFORE powerlifting focused enormously on my legs and lower back and I'm still playing catchup on bench while my squat has pretty much always just gone up if I train it and train my legs although my deadlift has had times where it definitely stagnated but I've usually been able to get it moving.
Yes, I think too many other factors including, as you noted, training history and specifically where one concentrated early on. I’m short and have long arms. I should be awesome at DLing and suck at bench. Yet here are my ratios:

Bench to squat .8310
Bench to DL .7195

@houzi’s is nearly identical in bench to DL (he’s much stronger, of course):

Bench to squat .7562
Bench to DL .7184

@MarkKO, these are yours:

Bench to squat .5647
Bench to DL .5169
That is at once interesting and infuriating. It just highlights how much work I've got to do on bench.
I don’t have any idea of what’s “normal” or desirable in this context. I do know that me benching 83% of my squat always has made me feel my squat is trash, and yet over time I’ve spent far more time squatting. Perhaps a (personal, at least) lesson there.

My downfall is that I never learn from these lessons. I like squatting at every session and so I do, the subpar results be damned. Etc.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#71

Post by MarkKO » Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:46 pm

DCR wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:29 pm
MarkKO wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:53 pm
DCR wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:39 am
MarkKO wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:17 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:03 pm
DCR wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:22 pm
houzi wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:19 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:13 pm
MarkKO wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:06 pm
DCR wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:30 am This tracks. Before I saw it, I had intended to post that I think 1200 is achievable for a determined average dude (somewhere around 300/400/500 B/S/D). A 300 lb increase - around - 400/500/600 - generally isn’t.
That kind of puts it into context in a way I hadn't thought of before. A bit of a tangent just relating to the numbers is that I've rarely seen people get those totals with those numbers. There's usually one lift that lags, with the other two taking up the slack.

Definitely the person who comes in and has that even kind of distribution between the lifts is going to do well, and that arguably is a decent indication of someone at the least genetically favoured for the sport of powerlifting.
For sure. I would think just having the 400 bench alone would put one in a top tier. I used to lift at a well know powerlifter spot in NY. 700 lb DLs were a dime a dozen (nearly all pulled sumo or modified sumo), and some of those dudes weren’t large. 500 lb squats probably were half as common, if even, but the guys who had them nearly all looked like it. 400 lb benches were far less common even than that, and those dudes all were fucking jacked. Varying levels of leanness, but all jacked up to their ears.

Our community here is comprised of lots of dudes who take this stuff pretty seriously for (mostly) non competitors. Other than @Hanley and @broseph, does anyone have a 400 bench?
I hit a 396lbs bench a few weeks ago. So im close but not quite there yet.
That’s awesome. Where are your squat and DL? Asking because I find the variations in different individuals’ ratios to be fascinating.
Currently circling the drain haha! Ive had a quad injury that has lead to lower training being a bit stop and start the past 8 months, while benching has been mostly constant. Best ever Squat and DL 1RMs (that I actually hit last May) are 237.5kg Sq, and 250kg DL. At that time my best bench was 167.5kg. However since then Ive also hit 240kg x3 DL, if thats worth anything.
But yes, im very much built to bench: average to short arms, long-ish torso. I have quite long legs, so my DL leverages arent great, plus flat feet and some small muscle imbalances in my legs have lead to some slower lower progress.
Im also ex-military so i have done A LOT of push ups, and that movement plane feels very natural. Bench feels like my most technically proficient lift.
I also find it quite interesting the effects different limb lengths and leverages that can result in the different spread of SBD ability.
The whole built to... issue is weird because it doesn't always pan out exactly as you'd expect.

I'm NOT built to deadlift (medium arms, long back) and arguably better built to bench than deadlift for certain BUT my bench doesn't remotely reflect this and I think it's because for the first maybe three years of training for powerlifting I didn't know how to train my upper body properly.

Add to that the initial years I spent training BEFORE powerlifting focused enormously on my legs and lower back and I'm still playing catchup on bench while my squat has pretty much always just gone up if I train it and train my legs although my deadlift has had times where it definitely stagnated but I've usually been able to get it moving.
Yes, I think too many other factors including, as you noted, training history and specifically where one concentrated early on. I’m short and have long arms. I should be awesome at DLing and suck at bench. Yet here are my ratios:

Bench to squat .8310
Bench to DL .7195

@houzi’s is nearly identical in bench to DL (he’s much stronger, of course):

Bench to squat .7562
Bench to DL .7184

@MarkKO, these are yours:

Bench to squat .5647
Bench to DL .5169
That is at once interesting and infuriating. It just highlights how much work I've got to do on bench.
I don’t have any idea of what’s “normal” or desirable in this context. I do know that me benching 83% of my squat always has made me feel my squat is trash, and yet over time I’ve spent far more time squatting. Perhaps a (personal, at least) lesson there.

My downfall is that I never learn from these lessons. I like squatting at every session and so I do, the subpar results be damned. Etc.
A flippant answer to that is, a smaller discrepancy.

I would imagine that a bench to squat of 0.7 or greater with a squat to DL of 0.9 or greater would be 'ideal'. That means you're leaving very little on the table in respect of where you lag and it would be a matter of just getting each lift to go up reasonably consistently.

Using my case as an example, just having that bench to squat ratio would increase my current total by around 75 pounds. That's a lot by any standard.

In your case, let's say you keep that bench to squat ratio over time but your squat increases by 50 pounds, you're likewise in a very good place relative to where you are now. Your squat will still be 'low' relative to your bench, but your bench will more than make up for that. Typically that's something you see in SHW guys between their bench and deadlift.

I think in reality the people who have that bench to squat of 0.7 or so and around 0.9 squat to deadlift or better are likely to either be or end up at the top of the sport. They just don't have a weakness anywhere in their total and can beat most people even on a bad day simply because most other people will only be good at two of the three lifts. They're already on the back foot in that respect. People like Dan Bell, Yuri Belkin and Tamara Walcott spring to mind in that category. They are so complete it's very, very hard to beat them.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#72

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:37 am

Interesting discussion. Two thoughts that came to my mind:
- I think that there is a thing such as "built to perform lift X" (to a certain degree), however a lot of the factors that influence what you are built for are hidden. The most important is muscle insertion points, which is completely hidden (barring dissection). For instance you can have long arms so that you look like a natural deadlifter but not be very good at deadlifts based on where your hamstrings, glutes etc insert on your skeleton.
- I also think that its hard to dissociate "built to perform lift X" versus "having performed a lot of work biased towards lift X", in the sense that, even your whole training history will impact what you can do on any given day. If you go to a commercial gym many people can bench as much as they squat, simply because they bias almost all of their training towards increasing upper body mass, and that includes guys that are not "natural benchers". On the other hand if you look at starting strength people, its not rare to see people who can squat twice their bench (lol) because they squat so much, and not all of them are "natural squatters".

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#73

Post by MarkKO » Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:49 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:37 am Interesting discussion. Two thoughts that came to my mind:
- I think that there is a thing such as "built to perform lift X" (to a certain degree), however a lot of the factors that influence what you are built for are hidden. The most important is muscle insertion points, which is completely hidden (barring dissection). For instance you can have long arms so that you look like a natural deadlifter but not be very good at deadlifts based on where your hamstrings, glutes etc insert on your skeleton.
- I also think that its hard to dissociate "built to perform lift X" versus "having performed a lot of work biased towards lift X", in the sense that, even your whole training history will impact what you can do on any given day. If you go to a commercial gym many people can bench as much as they squat, simply because they bias almost all of their training towards increasing upper body mass, and that includes guys that are not "natural benchers". On the other hand if you look at starting strength people, its not rare to see people who can squat twice their bench (lol) because they squat so much, and not all of them are "natural squatters".
This is also very true. There are many occasions when I have almost seriously considered taking a year or two to train like a 'gym bro' to see if that would have a significant impact on my bench.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#74

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:10 am

MarkKO wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:49 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:37 am Interesting discussion. Two thoughts that came to my mind:
- I think that there is a thing such as "built to perform lift X" (to a certain degree), however a lot of the factors that influence what you are built for are hidden. The most important is muscle insertion points, which is completely hidden (barring dissection). For instance you can have long arms so that you look like a natural deadlifter but not be very good at deadlifts based on where your hamstrings, glutes etc insert on your skeleton.
- I also think that its hard to dissociate "built to perform lift X" versus "having performed a lot of work biased towards lift X", in the sense that, even your whole training history will impact what you can do on any given day. If you go to a commercial gym many people can bench as much as they squat, simply because they bias almost all of their training towards increasing upper body mass, and that includes guys that are not "natural benchers". On the other hand if you look at starting strength people, its not rare to see people who can squat twice their bench (lol) because they squat so much, and not all of them are "natural squatters".
This is also very true. There are many occasions when I have almost seriously considered taking a year or two to train like a 'gym bro' to see if that would have a significant impact on my bench.
I'm sure it would. Especially with some serious bulking. I guess the hardest part is to try to maintain squat and deadlift while doing this.

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Re: Tier Three Tactical, also Average 2 savage

#75

Post by MarkKO » Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:20 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:10 am
MarkKO wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:49 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 1:37 am Interesting discussion. Two thoughts that came to my mind:
- I think that there is a thing such as "built to perform lift X" (to a certain degree), however a lot of the factors that influence what you are built for are hidden. The most important is muscle insertion points, which is completely hidden (barring dissection). For instance you can have long arms so that you look like a natural deadlifter but not be very good at deadlifts based on where your hamstrings, glutes etc insert on your skeleton.
- I also think that its hard to dissociate "built to perform lift X" versus "having performed a lot of work biased towards lift X", in the sense that, even your whole training history will impact what you can do on any given day. If you go to a commercial gym many people can bench as much as they squat, simply because they bias almost all of their training towards increasing upper body mass, and that includes guys that are not "natural benchers". On the other hand if you look at starting strength people, its not rare to see people who can squat twice their bench (lol) because they squat so much, and not all of them are "natural squatters".
This is also very true. There are many occasions when I have almost seriously considered taking a year or two to train like a 'gym bro' to see if that would have a significant impact on my bench.
I'm sure it would. Especially with some serious bulking. I guess the hardest part is to try to maintain squat and deadlift while doing this.
Bingo.

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