Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

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mbasic
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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#241

Post by mbasic » Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:27 pm

aurelius wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:11 pm To directly answer your questions: zero. None of these weapons are an existential threat to Israel. All of these weapons can only be used if Hamas crosses a patrolled, militarized border (requiring an IDF intelligence failures).
Wait. Didn't they get the hostages by just crossing the border? I see the your IDF-intel-fail qualifier there, but still ..... but shit happens. (911, Pearl Harbor, etc) lolz

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#242

Post by aurelius » Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:44 pm

mbasic wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:27 pmWait. Didn't they get the hostages by just crossing the border? I see the your IDF-intel-fail qualifier there, but still ..... but shit happens. (911, Pearl Harbor, etc) lolz
You notice how 9/11 was it? The US didn’t immediately hit Afghanistan. It only took was it 8 hijackers to infiltrate into the US. Why no more attacks? Shit, I could kill a million people with about 3 days of prep. The US intelligence was seriously worried about multiple and ongoing terrorist attacks on US soil. 9/11 really is all Al Qaeda had. Whatever Hamas could do it just did.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#243

Post by mbasic » Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:05 am

videos of Hamas running down school-aged girls and straight up executing/shooting them on their knees coming out now


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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#244

Post by hector » Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:11 pm

mbasic wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:05 am videos of Hamas running down school-aged girls and straight up executing/shooting them on their knees coming out now

I’m glad your link doesn’t work anymore. I would have watched it and then regretted it.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#245

Post by hector » Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:15 pm

mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:27 am
mbasic wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:20 am
mikeylikey wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:57 am
Hardartery wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:10 pm
LOL. Fair enough point, but it seems like a lot of weapons for a hospital outside of Texas.
I mean if you draw a line from "# of AKs you would expect to find in a hospital" to "# of AK's you would expect to find in the HQ of a major militant quasi government / terrorist organization", we would agree that "Nine" would be somewhere between those two points. But I'm thinking closer to one than the other.
How 'bout bricks of C-4, RPG rounds, gernades, mines, etc?

Image

Just stuff to keep the hospital secure I suppose

"And two" - I don't think Hamas' m.o. is going toe-to-toe, mono e mono, or AK-vs-Tavor with Israel is some kind of traditional shoot-it-out battle.... sure they have some guns lying around. But the rockets, bomb making materials, RPG rockets, IED-parts, etc are the bigger tell here.
What's a ballpark range for the numbers of these types of weapons that should make everybody feel comfortable with the IDF killing a couple thousand people to get there? Is it this many^, or, are we at least close?
I think your question was rhetorical.
Regardless, the number of found weapons could be zero or infinite. It’d make no difference to the almost everybody that has already made up their minds.
Most of us are now working backward, grabbing the pieces of information suitable to strengthen our pre-formed conclusions.

If anyone has a fundamental shift in opinion from where they started off I would appreciate hearing about it.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#246

Post by mikeylikey » Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:09 am

hector wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:15 pm I think your question was rhetorical.
Regardless, the number of found weapons could be zero or infinite. It’d make no difference to the almost everybody that has already made up their minds.
Most of us are now working backward, grabbing the pieces of information suitable to strengthen our pre-formed conclusions.

If anyone has a fundamental shift in opinion from where they started off I would appreciate hearing about it.
Your question seems to insinuate that changing ones mind is indicative of considering the evidence in good faith, and by extension that not doing one corresponds with not doing the other.

This could be an artifact of the format.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#247

Post by hector » Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:40 pm

mikeylikey wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:09 am
hector wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:15 pm I think your question was rhetorical.
Regardless, the number of found weapons could be zero or infinite. It’d make no difference to the almost everybody that has already made up their minds.
Most of us are now working backward, grabbing the pieces of information suitable to strengthen our pre-formed conclusions.

If anyone has a fundamental shift in opinion from where they started off I would appreciate hearing about it.
Your question seems to insinuate that changing ones mind is indicative of considering the evidence in good faith, and by extension that not doing one corresponds with not doing the other.

This could be an artifact of the format.
Yep.
I think your biases, more than ever before, will play into the algorithm and function as almost a curator of what you see.
If you start off pro-X, your media feed will give you the stuff the the pro-X people tend to want to see. Because the algorithm knows that particularly flavored material will optimize for max eyeballs on max ads for max time in your demographic.
So, even if you’re generally open minded, even if your biases are slight, you’ll end up seeing your slight biases catered to. And likely your position hardened, as your personal data sets glow increasingly skewed.
I make an effort to seek out the writing and videos of the side I more disagree with on the Israel/Hamas conflict. And my position, while maybe more nuanced, is about where I started. But if I didn’t seek out the other side, then, for sure, at least on an emotional level, I would have been pulled further in the direction of my biases.
And this is an issue where I had a little bit of knowledge and interest going in. On other issues where I’m less thought out, I’m sure I (and most others) are more manipulated without even being aware.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#248

Post by mikeylikey » Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:45 pm

hector wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:40 pm

Yep.
But what if I was 100% right to begin with?

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#249

Post by hector » Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:56 pm

mikeylikey wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:45 pm
hector wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:40 pm

Yep.
But what if I was 100% right to begin with?
Then you gotta restrict your input. Stay in your bubble. Refuse to hear other’s opinions.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#250

Post by JonA » Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:40 am

mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:27 am What's a ballpark range for the numbers of these types of weapons that should make everybody feel comfortable with the IDF killing a couple thousand people to get there? Is it this many^, or, are we at least close?
It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.

Hamas has been claiming that it is not at all operating out of hospitals while Israel is claiming that it does. So the real question is "What's a ballpark range for the numbers of these types of weapons that should make everybody realize that Hamas is lying about the nature and scope of it's operations in hospitals"?

Ak47s in a hospital is a bit like DNA evidence at crime scene. Quibbling over the quantity of it is missing the point.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#251

Post by 5hout » Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:08 pm

JonA wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:40 am
mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:27 am What's a ballpark range for the numbers of these types of weapons that should make everybody feel comfortable with the IDF killing a couple thousand people to get there? Is it this many^, or, are we at least close?
It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.

Hamas has been claiming that it is not at all operating out of hospitals while Israel is claiming that it does. So the real question is "What's a ballpark range for the numbers of these types of weapons that should make everybody realize that Hamas is lying about the nature and scope of it's operations in hospitals"?

Ak47s in a hospital is a bit like DNA evidence at crime scene. Quibbling over the quantity of it is missing the point.

Idk how to make heart eye emoij

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#252

Post by mikeylikey » Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:07 am

JonA wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:40 am
It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.
Okay, so same question: Are you comfortable with several thousand women and children dying based on the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital which are now evident?

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#253

Post by JonA » Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:13 am

mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:07 am
JonA wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:40 am
It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.
Okay, so same question: Are you comfortable with several thousand women and children dying based on the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital which are now evident?
Are you saying that that several thousand women and children were killed during Israel's siege and occupation of the hospital (al-Shifa)??? Because I don't think even Hamas has claimed that many.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#254

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:53 am

JonA wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:13 am
mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:07 am
JonA wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:40 am
It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.
Okay, so same question: Are you comfortable with several thousand women and children dying based on the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital which are now evident?
Are you saying that that several thousand women and children were killed during Israel's siege and occupation of the hospital (al-Shifa)??? Because I don't think even Hamas has claimed that many.
I bet they would claim that. It is also several hospitals, the claim was that they were conducting operations in tunnels under all of the hospitals not just Al-Shifa and it could actually easily be thousands that have been killed directly around and in the hospitals.
Side note, I have been mostly off-line for a week and missed some of this thread, has anyone brought up the admission by Israel that they knew the tunnels were there because it was actually Israel that built them? Just curious.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#255

Post by aurelius » Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:35 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:53 am it was actually Israel that built them? Just curious.
I don't see who built the tunnels as relevant. This is is one of those gotcha facts that really are meaningless. "Hamas was using tunnels to attack Israel." "But Israel built the tunnels 20 years ago!" Like what?

The only thing that is relevant regarding Israeli military operations is if Hamas was using the tunnels and the hospital as a base of operations.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#256

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:41 pm

aurelius wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:35 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:53 am it was actually Israel that built them? Just curious.
I don't see who built the tunnels as relevant. This is is one of those gotcha facts that really are meaningless. "Hamas was using tunnels to attack Israel." "But Israel built the tunnels 20 years ago!" Like what?

The only thing that is relevant regarding Israeli military operations is if Hamas was using the tunnels and the hospital as a base of operations.
What is relevant is they were originally claiming that Hamas had built the tunnel network, and that they have yet to produce anything of evidenciary value from them. It's like someone justifying an invasion based on the existence of WMD's, and then there aren't any.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#257

Post by aurelius » Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:27 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:41 pmWhat is relevant is they were originally claiming that Hamas had built the tunnel network, and that they have yet to produce anything of evidenciary value from them. It's like someone justifying an invasion based on the existence of WMD's, and then there aren't any.
Okay. What is your source for this? And Israel didn't invade the Gaza strip because it has tunnels (I see your false Iraq War II equivalence). Israel invaded Gaza because Hamas attacked them. They are targeting the tunnel network because that is where Hamas is hiding and is instrumental for Hamas to operate.

We know Hamas has built a tunnel network under the Gaza Strip. That isn't in dispute as Hamas has claimed that it has built over 300 miles of tunnels. See sources:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... nnels.html
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel ... s78HeUi46v
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/02/12100876 ... a-fighting
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/middleea ... index.html

And they found and killed Hamas leaders in the tunnels:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un ... r-AA1kAQes
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-con ... -fighting/
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/22 ... airstrikes

They won't actually find much in tunnels as tunnels are not used to store but are a network for transport. Allowing Hamas to move men, equipment, and materials without Israeli detection. Like they used the Hospital with a connection to the tunnel network for a base of operations. When Israel got close Hamas just packed up and left through the tunnel network to another site connected to the network. Israel is playing a costly game of whack-a-mole with Hamas.

*Side note: the death of 4 high level Hamas leaders is probably why Israel is okay with extending the cease fire.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#258

Post by Hardartery » Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:59 pm

aurelius wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 3:27 pm
Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 2:41 pmWhat is relevant is they were originally claiming that Hamas had built the tunnel network, and that they have yet to produce anything of evidenciary value from them. It's like someone justifying an invasion based on the existence of WMD's, and then there aren't any.
Okay. What is your source for this? And Israel didn't invade the Gaza strip because it has tunnels (I see your false Iraq War II equivalence). Israel invaded Gaza because Hamas attacked them. They are targeting the tunnel network because that is where Hamas is hiding and is instrumental for Hamas to operate.

We know Hamas has built a tunnel network under the Gaza Strip. That isn't in dispute as Hamas has claimed that it has built over 300 miles of tunnels. See sources:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... nnels.html
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel ... s78HeUi46v
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/02/12100876 ... a-fighting
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/middleea ... index.html

And they found and killed Hamas leaders in the tunnels:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un ... r-AA1kAQes
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-con ... -fighting/
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/22 ... airstrikes

They won't actually find much in tunnels as tunnels are not used to store but are a network for transport. Allowing Hamas to move men, equipment, and materials without Israeli detection. Like they used the Hospital with a connection to the tunnel network for a base of operations. When Israel got close Hamas just packed up and left through the tunnel network to another site connected to the network. Israel is playing a costly game of whack-a-mole with Hamas.

*Side note: the death of 4 high level Hamas leaders is probably why Israel is okay with extending the cease fire.
I can't read the NY Times articles without paying or gymnastics and I don't care that much, the Times of Israel states 4 Hamas commanders were killed, it does not even infer that they were in or even around tunnels. Israel justified bombing hospitals, and to an extent the ground invasion itself as opposed to just bombing strikes as necessary because of those tunnels. Were they in the tunnels? Maybe, it would not be surprising, but actual evidence would make Israel look less like the assholes that they are. Either way, it is being used to kill civilians. And Israel is not trying to not kill civilians. Hamas is not better, but sinking to the level of the enemy is not the noble path, it is waterboarding and trying to weasel around agreements made with the world at large because they don't want prove they are in fact no better than the worst actor in the conflict.

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#259

Post by hector » Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:24 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:53 am
JonA wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:13 am
mikeylikey wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:07 am
JonA wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:40 am
It's not the number of weapons that matter. It's the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital that matters.
Okay, so same question: Are you comfortable with several thousand women and children dying based on the nature and scope of Hamas operations in the hospital which are now evident?
Are you saying that that several thousand women and children were killed during Israel's siege and occupation of the hospital (al-Shifa)??? Because I don't think even Hamas has claimed that many.
I bet they would claim that. It is also several hospitals, the claim was that they were conducting operations in tunnels under all of the hospitals not just Al-Shifa and it could actually easily be thousands that have been killed directly around and in the hospitals.
Side note, I have been mostly off-line for a week and missed some of this thread, has anyone brought up the admission by Israel that they knew the tunnels were there because it was actually Israel that built them? Just curious.
I saw a minute of this on TV. Seemed unclear. Like maybe Israel was admitting to building some limited underground spaces next to the hospital, rather than a tunnel network. But wasn’t super clear (to me) either way.
Maybe it’s both, and the Hamas tunnels connect to the Israel built underground space?
Idk

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Re: Hamas Attack on Israel - 7th Oct 2023

#260

Post by JonA » Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:25 pm

Hardartery wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2023 8:53 am I bet they would claim that. It is also several hospitals, the claim was that they were conducting operations in tunnels under all of the hospitals not just Al-Shifa
Yeah, I'm sure the causalities are much higher if you broaden the criteria, but that wasn't what @mikeylikey was referring to.
it could actually easily be thousands that have been killed directly around and in the hospitals.
Could have? Like hypothetically? I haven't seen any reputable statistics that are even remotely close to that.

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