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fit40strong
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Re: Running thread

#121

Post by fit40strong » Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:05 am

hector wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2023 9:08 am Just stumbled on this thread.

If anyone has updates to their efforts at combining running and lifting I’d love to hear about it.

On 01 January this year I ran for the first time in quite awhile. Was/am also significantly overweight. It was really just a minute or two of running followed by massive 5 minute walk breaks. And it was a challenge!

Here we are in August and my weight is largely unchanged. I’m a little stronger. Whenever I decided to pull heavy this year I could still pull in the 500s without an issue. I ran an 11 mile race and loved it, albeit at a slow pace.

I don’t think my failure to vastly improve strength or do something crazy like complete a marathon were due to bad programming. I see my marginal gains as a small victory in a year when work and life issues (and by extension, sleep and recovery) were crazy. I would actually add that I think running is great for mental health when life’s difficulty level increments upward.

I am at a point where I regularly run > 5 miles in an hour with intermittent walk breaks. (So running pace was just over 10min/mile, probably 8 minutes of walk breaks during the hour.) This is terrible for a runner, might not even count as running, but represents a vast improvement for someone formerly sedentary. Resting pulse rate dropped from high 70s to 60/61, sometimes even 58/59. A few times, early in the morning, I did a 7.5 mile run to the next town over and then treated myself to Starbucks. This might sound lame as fuck, but is lots of fun once you get to like (or at least not abhor) running.

Going forward for the rest of the year I’m going to switch from longer (> 5 miles) distance and start focusing on speed and the shorter 5k distance. Just did a 5k oriented workout the other day and it was fun to mix things up.
Your journey from a minute or two of running with substantial walk breaks to consistently running over 5 miles in an hour is truly commendable. It's not about comparing yourself to seasoned runners; it's about your personal progress, and you've made significant strides in improving your fitness and overall health. Your ability to maintain strength, even in the midst of a challenging year with work and life issues, is a testament to your dedication and resilience. Additionally, recognizing the positive impact of running on your mental health is crucial. Exercise, including running, can be a powerful tool for managing stress and enhancing well-being, and it's fantastic to hear that it's been a source of support during difficult times.

Transitioning your focus from longer distances to speed and the 5k distance is a smart move. Mixing up your workouts and setting new goals can keep your routine exciting and help you continue to progress. Remember that consistency and gradual improvement are key in both running and lifting. It's not about achieving marathon-level distances or record-breaking lifts right away; it's about the journey and the improvements you make along the way. Keep enjoying your runs, exploring new challenges, and celebrating each milestone you achieve. Your dedication is inspiring and serves as a reminder that progress is possible, no matter where you start. 🏃‍♂️🏋️‍♂️💪👏

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Re: Running thread

#122

Post by JohnHelton » Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:39 am

Well said, @fit40strong. I have been wrestling a bit with some discouragement myself. However, I'm trying to remind myself that it is about health and fitness. It is okay to be slow...especially when you can bench more than most runners can squat. I'm just trying to stay consistent and slowly build my mileage. More speed will come with time...even if I'm never fast.

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Re: Running thread

#123

Post by fit40strong » Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:59 am

You're absolutely right; it's about our own journey to better health and fitness. Each step, no matter how slow, is progress. And hey, benching more than most runners can squat? That's some serious strength right there! Keep that consistency going, and you'll achieve your goals. We all have those down days, but we're in this together, lifting each other up. Your dedication is inspiring! 💪😊

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Re: Running thread

#124

Post by TornAlien » Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:35 am

I have been running for 3 months. I was used just with height trainning and running became like an escape or meditating process. I put my headphones on and run for one or two hours. After that I feel so much better.

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Re: Running thread

#125

Post by perman » Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:10 am

I'm struggling with the lifting + running combo myself. I find the biggest challenge to the sheer amount of time and number of weekly sessions it requires.
The conclusion I've come to is that unless you are some conscientious, disciplined monk with an iron control over your life structure, you need to only focus on cardio or strength, and then maintain the other.
I'm doing the following program to limited success:
One day a lifting, two days of cardio after that, rest days when needed or time requires it. And replace a cardio day with a weight day if it's more than 3 days since the last time.
For the cardio I do MAF/zone 2 and just try to extend the session duration. And every 4-6 cardio session I do a 4*4 session to improve VO2 max (80/20 rule ish).

My cardio is improving slowly with this program. but I'm getting somewhat weaker :roll:

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Re: Running thread

#126

Post by AlanMackey » Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:05 am

perman wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:10 am I'm struggling with the lifting + running combo myself. I find the biggest challenge to the sheer amount of time and number of weekly sessions it requires.
Add BJJ to that and you'll see the juggling act I've been dealing with for the past two decades. :lol:

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Re: Running thread

#127

Post by JohnHelton » Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:16 am

Running update. In September I had my mileage up to about 20 mi/week. Then I broke my index finger in October requiring surgery with pins. The pins came out in late November and then we moved to Montana, increasing elevation from 500 ft to almost 5000 ft. It has been slow getting back into the mileage. However, I am finally back to running about an 11:30 pace in Zone 2. That feels almost like running again. I have also transitioned from run/walk to constant running.

I plan to do a half marathon this summer and am using the app from https://runkaizen.com/ to map out the mileage. It is a pretty cool program that will gradually build your training volume in preparation to hit your race goal time. I understand there is some real data science behind it. We'll see. I would love to go faster than 2 hours for the half. If I can get my Zone 2 pace closer to 10 min/min then I think that is a possibility. However, cardio fitness is just like strength. You can't force it. Do the training and it will either be there or it won't.

The other tool that I may start using is my Garmin's daily suggested workout. It is also pretty slick. I have entered my race in June, and it prescribes a daily workout (or rest) given the goal race, fitness, training load, recovery, etc. It is also pretty easy to coordinate with Kaizen, since that program only prescribes a total mileage target for the week.

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Re: Running thread

#128

Post by JohnHelton » Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:26 am

Regarding zone 2 training. There is a lot of talk on YouTube about how important it is to spend 80% of your cardio time in Zone 2. However, finding your zone 2 seems to be an endless source of confusion and debate. From my research into the topic, it seems the easiest way to find your Zone 2 HR is a "talk test" on the treadmill. That is outlined here. https://www.8020endurance.com/intensity ... 0-running/ It was really pretty easy. Of course you can do the same on the track, but it is harder there to control the speed. All that said, my treadmill isn't calibrated and thus my zone 2 pace on the treadmill isn't accurate for running outside. The other test to use when finding zone 2 is RPE. 3 out of 10 RPE is considered a pretty reliable measure for zone 2 as well. Sometimes it is more accurate than HR. When running outside, I tend to use both as guidelines, with the thought "keep it easy".

Another tool for finding your zone is Garmin's Lactate Threshold Test. It takes about 35 minutes on the track and requires a HR strap in addition to the watch. It will tell you your lactate threshold in terms of both pace and HR. I did it one time in November, before moving to elevation, and it is really slick. Finding your lactate threshold in the lab is really the gold standard for setting your zones. However, Garmin's Lactate Threshold test seems to get good reviews from YouTubers who have done it in addition to doing the lab test. I know the Coros watch has something similar. Incidentally, I got the same HR zones from the talk test and the lactate threshold test.

Finally, I'm on Strava if anyone is interested in following my running journey. I don't post my running to my Exodus log. https://www.strava.com/athletes/123356010 If you do follow on Strava, let me know that you are from Exodus. I'm interested in following back others with the same hybrid goals.

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Re: Running thread

#129

Post by augeleven » Sat Feb 03, 2024 11:53 am

Ok I’m following. I don’t normally log Strava unless I’m outside

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Re: Running thread

#130

Post by JohnHelton » Sat Feb 03, 2024 11:56 am

augeleven wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 11:53 am Ok I’m following. I don’t normally log Strava unless I’m outside
Cool. I got it and followed back. Good to have some company as a slower runners on Strava. It seems like everyone else is running an 8:30 pace. Good for them.

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Re: Running thread

#131

Post by AlanMackey » Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:35 am

JohnHelton wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:16 am Then I broke my index finger in October requiring surgery with pins.
That's some serious surgery! What happened?

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Re: Running thread

#132

Post by AlanMackey » Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:38 am

JohnHelton wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:26 am Regarding zone 2 training. There is a lot of talk on YouTube about how important it is to spend 80% of your cardio time in Zone 2. However, finding your zone 2 seems to be an endless source of confusion and debate. From my research into the topic, it seems the easiest way to find your Zone 2 HR is a "talk test" on the treadmill. That is outlined here. https://www.8020endurance.com/intensity ... 0-running/ It was really pretty easy. Of course you can do the same on the track, but it is harder there to control the speed. All that said, my treadmill isn't calibrated and thus my zone 2 pace on the treadmill isn't accurate for running outside. The other test to use when finding zone 2 is RPE. 3 out of 10 RPE is considered a pretty reliable measure for zone 2 as well. Sometimes it is more accurate than HR. When running outside, I tend to use both as guidelines, with the thought "keep it easy".

Another tool for finding your zone is Garmin's Lactate Threshold Test. It takes about 35 minutes on the track and requires a HR strap in addition to the watch. It will tell you your lactate threshold in terms of both pace and HR. I did it one time in November, before moving to elevation, and it is really slick. Finding your lactate threshold in the lab is really the gold standard for setting your zones. However, Garmin's Lactate Threshold test seems to get good reviews from YouTubers who have done it in addition to doing the lab test. I know the Coros watch has something similar. Incidentally, I got the same HR zones from the talk test and the lactate threshold test.

Finally, I'm on Strava if anyone is interested in following my running journey. I don't post my running to my Exodus log. https://www.strava.com/athletes/123356010 If you do follow on Strava, let me know that you are from Exodus. I'm interested in following back others with the same hybrid goals.
Breathing through the nose exclusively always helped me tremendously to find and sustain the right pace.

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Re: Running thread

#133

Post by psmith » Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:16 am

I'm increasingly suspicious that zones and zone boundaries are fake and the correct balance of training intensities is the one that lets you accumulate the most kilojoules/miles at a work rate above some (very low, maybe like 40% of VO2peak?) threshold within your time constraints over the next ten years or so. Of course, the only way to know this for sure is to do it, which doesn't give you a very user-friendly feedback loop, so heart rate, pace, RPE, breathing can all be useful proxies, but there's no deep physiological reason why any of the particular markers people suggest should be the right one.

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Re: Running thread

#134

Post by JohnHelton » Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:38 am

psmith wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:16 am I'm increasingly suspicious that zones and zone boundaries are fake and the correct balance of training intensities is the one that lets you accumulate the most kilojoules/miles at a work rate above some (very low, maybe like 40% of VO2peak?) threshold within your time constraints over the next ten years or so. Of course, the only way to know this for sure is to do it, which doesn't give you a very user-friendly feedback loop, so heart rate, pace, RPE, breathing can all be useful proxies, but there's no deep physiological reason why any of the particular markers people suggest should be the right one.
I think there may be a lot of truth in your statement. This is another tool by the Cambridge guys that built runkaizen.com. https://tandaracepredictor.com/ It would suggest that your cardio fitness (i.e. race ability) is a product of your overall training load, which is a combination of accumulated pace and distance. Having played with the variables, it is clear that your average pace is a more important input than volume. However, I think in practice, if you are going to be competitive, that means running increasingly in Zone 2. At least that is what the high mileage folks do, and have been since Arthur Lydiard. I think that is because people can sustain much higher training loads when they reduce the pace and increase the volume. For me, I just enjoy running more when it is mostly in Zone 2 with some speed work in Zone 4-5.

That said if someone wanted to only spend an hour or two per week runnning, then I think it makes sense to run those miles faster than Zone 2. Once you have capped your training load in terms of volume, you can only increase it via pace.

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Re: Running thread

#135

Post by JohnHelton » Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:41 am

AlanMackey wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:35 am
JohnHelton wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:16 am Then I broke my index finger in October requiring surgery with pins.
That's some serious surgery! What happened?
I was breaking up a dog fight. Grabbed the collar of one, thinking that I had multiple fingers under the collar, but it was only one. It snapped almost instantly. He is a strong boy.

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Re: Running thread

#136

Post by JohnHelton » Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:42 am

AlanMackey wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:38 am
JohnHelton wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:26 am Regarding zone 2 training. There is a lot of talk on YouTube about how important it is to spend 80% of your cardio time in Zone 2. However, finding your zone 2 seems to be an endless source of confusion and debate. From my research into the topic, it seems the easiest way to find your Zone 2 HR is a "talk test" on the treadmill. That is outlined here. https://www.8020endurance.com/intensity ... 0-running/ It was really pretty easy. Of course you can do the same on the track, but it is harder there to control the speed. All that said, my treadmill isn't calibrated and thus my zone 2 pace on the treadmill isn't accurate for running outside. The other test to use when finding zone 2 is RPE. 3 out of 10 RPE is considered a pretty reliable measure for zone 2 as well. Sometimes it is more accurate than HR. When running outside, I tend to use both as guidelines, with the thought "keep it easy".

Another tool for finding your zone is Garmin's Lactate Threshold Test. It takes about 35 minutes on the track and requires a HR strap in addition to the watch. It will tell you your lactate threshold in terms of both pace and HR. I did it one time in November, before moving to elevation, and it is really slick. Finding your lactate threshold in the lab is really the gold standard for setting your zones. However, Garmin's Lactate Threshold test seems to get good reviews from YouTubers who have done it in addition to doing the lab test. I know the Coros watch has something similar. Incidentally, I got the same HR zones from the talk test and the lactate threshold test.

Finally, I'm on Strava if anyone is interested in following my running journey. I don't post my running to my Exodus log. https://www.strava.com/athletes/123356010 If you do follow on Strava, let me know that you are from Exodus. I'm interested in following back others with the same hybrid goals.
Breathing through the nose exclusively always helped me tremendously to find and sustain the right pace.
Yep. This works for a lot of people.

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Re: Running thread

#137

Post by AlanMackey » Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:36 am

JohnHelton wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:41 am
I was breaking up a dog fight. Grabbed the collar of one, thinking that I had multiple fingers under the collar, but it was only one. It snapped almost instantly. He is a strong boy.
Ouch!

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Re: Running thread

#138

Post by perman » Sun May 05, 2024 5:43 am

psmith wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:16 am I'm increasingly suspicious that zones and zone boundaries are fake and the correct balance of training intensities is the one that lets you accumulate the most kilojoules/miles at a work rate above some (very low, maybe like 40% of VO2peak?) threshold within your time constraints over the next ten years or so. Of course, the only way to know this for sure is to do it, which doesn't give you a very user-friendly feedback loop, so heart rate, pace, RPE, breathing can all be useful proxies, but there's no deep physiological reason why any of the particular markers people suggest should be the right one.
I think sustainability and building a base which can handle intense cardio is why zone 2 is a good idea. If you can actually sustain higher efforts, it's probably good, but I find a running+lifting program pretty exhausting to begin with (particularly if lack that base), and if you start with zone 2 erring on the easy side, you can always titrate up the intensity gradually once you build that aerobic base up.

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Re: Running thread

#139

Post by Philbert » Mon May 06, 2024 7:46 pm

psmith wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:16 am I'm increasingly suspicious that zones and zone boundaries are fake and the correct balance of training intensities is the one that lets you accumulate the most kilojoules/miles at a work rate above some (very low, maybe like 40% of VO2peak?) threshold within your time constraints over the next ten years or so. Of course, the only way to know this for sure is to do it, which doesn't give you a very user-friendly feedback loop, so heart rate, pace, RPE, breathing can all be useful proxies, but there's no deep physiological reason why any of the particular markers people suggest should be the right one.
I tend to agree. If you have two 30 minute weekday slots and 1 60 minute weekend slot in which to accomplish your weekly running, spending all but 15 minutes in zone 2 is not going to get you very much speed. A runner in this scenario is probably better off working up to running an hour a little faster than zone 2, 1 30 minute session at lactate threshold, and the other 30 minute session as an easy run with a few short bursts of faster running mixed in. The caveat is that doing all the running in zone 2 is better than hurting yourself and then doing none of the running for a month, and then starting over. I think time constrained runners should start with zone 2 training, and, like novice LP, do it till it stops working or starts to become a depressing grind. Then transition gradually to something like the above, backing off the intensity immediately if something seems to be breaking.
My lifting/running combo is overall going nowhere. I am running 10 k now at last fall's 5 k pace, but the small measure of running consistency that got me that has been at the cost of lifting consistency.

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Re: Running thread

#140

Post by JohnHelton » Tue May 07, 2024 8:02 am

@Philbert I agree with the above. Unless you are really gifted, running harder for 20 minutes out of 2 hours per week isn't really going to get you very fast. I think the 80/20 rule applies more when you are pushing the running volume. However, that is hard to do unless you put the lifting on the backburner. My running improvements have been frustratingly slow in comparison to lifting. However, I have no gifts when it comes to running. I think I could get a lot faster if I was running 5 hours per week, but I am not willing to sacrifice my lifting for that. At the end of the day, I would still be a mediocre runner anyway.

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