LOW TESTOSTERONE???

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cole
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#101

Post by cole » Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:32 pm

SeeMac wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:41 am Turns out that wasn't enough, so we bumped it to 150 / week. This was too much, so dropped it to 125 / week. This seems to be the sweet spot, and I've been on this dose for probably 18 months or so. My total test stays around 25 nmol / L (700 ish ng / dl), and my free testosterone is right at the upper end of the reference range (TRT will drop SHBG, so free test / total test ratio will go up).

Turns out, despite being around 400 ng/dl, I had low testosterone.
how did you know it was too high? what were your symptoms?

i recently bumped mine from 80mg/wk to 120 mg/wk and i think im hot

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#102

Post by cole » Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pm

at 80mg/wk (two injetions of .2ml) after 6 weeks i felt great and my numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk (two injections of .3ml) since that seems like a failry middle of the road dose and now im agitated and anxious. wtf maybe my body is just super sensitive to T. i would obviously like the highest # without side effects, if im gonna do something i wanna go all in.

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Hanley
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#103

Post by Hanley » Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm

cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.

cole
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#104

Post by cole » Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:06 pm

Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm
cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.
wow, well im glad you shared that. i just figured most of you guys were on 200mg/wk and for some reason i was thinking that was the bar for perfomance improvement. good to know, thanks man

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Hanley
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#105

Post by Hanley » Sun Jun 02, 2024 7:28 pm

cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:06 pm
Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm
cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.
wow, well im glad you shared that. i just figured most of you guys were on 200mg/wk and for some reason i was thinking that was the bar for perfomance improvement. good to know, thanks man
I haven't hit lifetime PRs...so no performance improvements yet :oops:

I'm guessing your threshold to "performance improvement" is quite a bit higher than 200mg/week and not at all worth the risk.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#106

Post by cole » Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:55 pm

Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 7:28 pm I'm guessing your threshold to "performance improvement" is quite a bit higher than 200mg/week and not at all worth the risk.
Damn. Makes me wonder why I'm doing this in the first place then......

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Hanley
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#107

Post by Hanley » Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:33 pm

cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:55 pm
Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 7:28 pm I'm guessing your threshold to "performance improvement" is quite a bit higher than 200mg/week and not at all worth the risk.
Damn. Makes me wonder why I'm doing this in the first place then......
Mood, body-comp, focus, libido? Eh?

But..I don't think gains

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#108

Post by SeeMac » Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:31 am

cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:32 pm
SeeMac wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:41 am Turns out that wasn't enough, so we bumped it to 150 / week. This was too much, so dropped it to 125 / week. This seems to be the sweet spot, and I've been on this dose for probably 18 months or so. My total test stays around 25 nmol / L (700 ish ng / dl), and my free testosterone is right at the upper end of the reference range (TRT will drop SHBG, so free test / total test ratio will go up).

Turns out, despite being around 400 ng/dl, I had low testosterone.
how did you know it was too high? what were your symptoms?

i recently bumped mine from 80mg/wk to 120 mg/wk and i think im hot
Honestly I just saw the numbers and it was too much. Total T was something like 30nmol/L (RR 8-29) and free T was like 50% over the top of the range. Didn't have any symptoms of high T or E or anything. My GP called and said I was through the roof so he asked how I felt, I said fine and he said I might want to lower it but he wasn't worried since lipids/CBC were all good.

I'm actually in the process now of trying to come off after 3 years of being on. Just about 30 days of no testosterone and I feel fine now but I've been using a fairly high dose of HCG to kickstart so we'll see how it goes when I stop the hcg.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#109

Post by SeeMac » Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:35 am

Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm
cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.
True replacement is about 100mg/week, give or take. Average male production is about 3-10mg/day of pure testosterone. Testosterone cypionate and enanthate are around 70% testosterone by weight, so 100mg/week gives ~70mg/week of pure testosterone, so ~10mg/day. SHBG tends to drop when using TRT so generally the TT/FT ratio will drop, but 100mg/week rarely doesn't have someone's free T in the upper third of the reference range.

TRT clinics in the US (presumably where you are) make a business out of prescribing TRT to people who don't need it. To get their customers to stay they need to make them "feel" something, and since their patients are not always hypogonadal to begin with, they need to be on quite a dose to feel anything. 200mg/week, or double the upper end of natural production, will definitely change how you feel.

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mbasic
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#110

Post by mbasic » Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:44 am

Been off over a year now I think.

TRT definitely wasn't the answer.

I just have low test numbers (mid 200's), and operate that way .... and, in general, feel more shitty at 52 than say I did at 22 or 32 or 42.

Go figure

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#111

Post by Hardartery » Mon Jun 03, 2024 8:09 pm

cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:06 pm
Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm
cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.
wow, well im glad you shared that. i just figured most of you guys were on 200mg/wk and for some reason i was thinking that was the bar for perfomance improvement. good to know, thanks man
To go along with that, my HBG gets up to the top of range or slightly over if I go up too high, like 185 or above a week. 200/week is based mostly on a standard vial is 200 mg of cypionate, as far as I can tell. It is also the standard bro dose, especially for lifters, extra-especially for lifter with a PED history. The gainzz from 200mg over 100-150 are non-existent and pure hope. No point. If you want to blast proceed directly to 500mg and get value for the risk, the lower numbers are just pointless increased risk.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#112

Post by unlimitedgains » Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:35 pm

SeeMac wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:35 am
Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm
cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.
True replacement is about 100mg/week, give or take. Average male production is about 3-10mg/day of pure testosterone. Testosterone cypionate and enanthate are around 70% testosterone by weight, so 100mg/week gives ~70mg/week of pure testosterone, so ~10mg/day. SHBG tends to drop when using TRT so generally the TT/FT ratio will drop, but 100mg/week rarely doesn't have someone's free T in the upper third of the reference range.

TRT clinics in the US (presumably where you are) make a business out of prescribing TRT to people who don't need it. To get their customers to stay they need to make them "feel" something, and since their patients are not always hypogonadal to begin with, they need to be on quite a dose to feel anything. 200mg/week, or double the upper end of natural production, will definitely change how you feel.
Quite unethical if they're using first cycle trt course euphoria to get guys who might not need it and who might not know what they're getting into to be drug dependant, potentially for life.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#113

Post by unlimitedgains » Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:41 pm

Thought I think ending up shut down for life after just is pretty unlikely(?)

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mbasic
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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#114

Post by mbasic » Wed Jun 05, 2024 5:36 am

SeeMac wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:35 am TRT clinics in the US (presumably where you are) make a business out of prescribing TRT to people who don't need it. To get their customers to stay they need to make them "feel" something, and since their patients are not always hypogonadal to begin with, they need to be on quite a dose to feel anything. 200mg/week, or double the upper end of natural production, will definitely change how you feel.
my old clinic, and/or the 'circles' of people I talk to,. 200mg/wk is considered 'Steroids-Lite', or TRT++squared. Generally frowned upon.

if you get up to, or start at, that level .... you start to get looked at sideways.

Think about the legit TRT clinics that are out there, trying to help people with this stuff.
They have to some how filter out, or accept the fact, a bunch of dudes are gaming the system to go on Roids-Lite.....and there's really nothing you can do about it. If they lie about symptoms, or, sabotage their blood test results/draws .... the provider certainly can't accuse them of anything.


[beginrantmode]
When I was going, I would always go into the clinic and make them inject me. You would see all the rift raff that came in the lobby. Big round red faces, meatheads, etc. One red-face-guy blew up (anger-wise) on the front-desk-lady about payment/billing/auto-withdrawls from his credit card or something.....was quite funny. I started chuckling.

I also noticed it was common for these people (men, getting TRT treatment) to park illegally in the handicap spacing next to the office door while they ran for shots. There were ample empty parking spacing everywhere, but if you can imagine, this was a medical/health care office complex of sorts...a bunch of different suites: chiro, PT, ADHD clinic, TRT/HRT place, imaging center, ortho, etc......so maybe they had built in an extra amount of the special blue parking stalls .... but these dudes couldn't be bothered to park a whole extra 30 feet away and walk a bit. I would typically go on Mondays and Thursdays right when they opened. Mon at 8am was peak asshole hour,,,, I start work at 4am, so I'm in a different mindset already...these other assholes? jeeshes-christ!

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#115

Post by SeeMac » Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:08 am

unlimitedgains wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:35 pm
SeeMac wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:35 am
Hanley wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:52 pm
cole wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:46 pmmy numbers were 950 total and 215 free (21.5) both above normal range. figured i could bump up to 120mg/wk
"I feel great and my numbers are high-as-fuck, might as well do more".

I understand the temptation, but - yeah - more is not better. Generally.

I've begrudgingly moved from 200mg/week (way too fucking high*) down to 150...and settled at 100mg/week.


* blood pressure went bonkers and sleep apnea went from not-at-all-a-problem to a massive issue.
True replacement is about 100mg/week, give or take. Average male production is about 3-10mg/day of pure testosterone. Testosterone cypionate and enanthate are around 70% testosterone by weight, so 100mg/week gives ~70mg/week of pure testosterone, so ~10mg/day. SHBG tends to drop when using TRT so generally the TT/FT ratio will drop, but 100mg/week rarely doesn't have someone's free T in the upper third of the reference range.

TRT clinics in the US (presumably where you are) make a business out of prescribing TRT to people who don't need it. To get their customers to stay they need to make them "feel" something, and since their patients are not always hypogonadal to begin with, they need to be on quite a dose to feel anything. 200mg/week, or double the upper end of natural production, will definitely change how you feel.
Quite unethical if they're using first cycle trt course euphoria to get guys who might not need it and who might not know what they're getting into to be drug dependant, potentially for life.
When you prohibit something, someone out there will be providing it. Better doctors than guys in the alley behind the gym. Although the banning of steroids in the US is still one of the best examples of congress being ridiculous.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#116

Post by Hardartery » Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:51 am

People seem to worry about range a lot. At 185/week I was not quite at top of range at trough. At 125/week I am just above mid-range at trough. I got no benefit from being close to top of range, only hassle from the doctor over my HBG. It had no positive on my lifting, sex drive, or anything else. Guys running at the top of the "TRT" dose are kidding themselves, it isn't optimal or better to be top of range or just above. I maintain that if someone wants to blast, then blast damnit, don't screw around with risk sans reward. You want to have high risk numbers, run a real dose that gives a return, otherwise just use a normal dose that makes you feel normal.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#117

Post by cole » Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:15 pm

Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:51 am People seem to worry about range a lot. At 185/week I was not quite at top of range at trough. At 125/week I am just above mid-range at trough. I got no benefit from being close to top of range, only hassle from the doctor over my HBG. It had no positive on my lifting, sex drive, or anything else. Guys running at the top of the "TRT" dose are kidding themselves, it isn't optimal or better to be top of range or just above. I maintain that if someone wants to blast, then blast damnit, don't screw around with risk sans reward. You want to have high risk numbers, run a real dose that gives a return, otherwise just use a normal dose that makes you feel normal.
i dont think anyone has a choice to "blast"...at least not at the clinic i work with. there is no way they would send me enough supply to take 500mg/wk.

the more i engage in this therapy, the more i realize that the main benefit of it is actually in the long term. a lot of guys say "for life" like its a bad thing. i actually view it as the positive. you can actually control and keep constant those hormones that make you healthy and feel good as you age, as opposed to the less attractive alternative. and i think you are right, i dont think there is much increase in reward from going from one end of the range to the other. i think the performace bell curve requires far more than the top end of the range, to which i say the risk far outweigh the rewards. ive experienced a fraction of them myself.

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Re: LOW TESTOSTERONE???

#118

Post by Hardartery » Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:16 am

cole wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 2:15 pm
Hardartery wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:51 am People seem to worry about range a lot. At 185/week I was not quite at top of range at trough. At 125/week I am just above mid-range at trough. I got no benefit from being close to top of range, only hassle from the doctor over my HBG. It had no positive on my lifting, sex drive, or anything else. Guys running at the top of the "TRT" dose are kidding themselves, it isn't optimal or better to be top of range or just above. I maintain that if someone wants to blast, then blast damnit, don't screw around with risk sans reward. You want to have high risk numbers, run a real dose that gives a return, otherwise just use a normal dose that makes you feel normal.
i dont think anyone has a choice to "blast"...at least not at the clinic i work with. there is no way they would send me enough supply to take 500mg/wk.

the more i engage in this therapy, the more i realize that the main benefit of it is actually in the long term. a lot of guys say "for life" like its a bad thing. i actually view it as the positive. you can actually control and keep constant those hormones that make you healthy and feel good as you age, as opposed to the less attractive alternative. and i think you are right, i dont think there is much increase in reward from going from one end of the range to the other. i think the performace bell curve requires far more than the top end of the range, to which i say the risk far outweigh the rewards. ive experienced a fraction of them myself.
Guys get enough to blast through various means. Some just buy some extra on the black market, but usually what happens is they are dosed at 125-185/week but the pharmacy just gives you a 200mg vial. So, if you just draw your dose every week through one or more vials and don't waste anything you accumulate many extra vials relatively quickly. When I was in the US dong this I had a pile of them pretty quickly, which I subsequently used up little by little by using it for my regular dose when in the US for something.

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