Deadlift start position

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DanCR
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Re: Deadlift start position

#21

Post by DanCR » Sun Jun 16, 2024 6:27 pm

Thanks for the explanation, @mgil.
For trap bar pulls, these mechanics change. I set up with the hips higher than needed and drive my knees forward into tension and then pull. It’s almost completely backwards from the barbell.
What you describe there is what I did with a conventional pull when using hook griip - beginning with hips high and “wedging knees under the bar.” Later when I was at my (not very) strongest, I had switched to mix grip and got “spring” by dipping, gripping, and ripping.

I havem’t seriously pulled in two or so years and my gym isn’t even a little conducive to it, but now I’m getting the urge to fuck around.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#22

Post by mbasic » Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:37 am

csaba2208 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:10 am https://x.com/sam_gzstrength/status/1802350616033038369
Incorrect because Rip said so...
The main reason is why this is post was sorta stupid .... is the "6 inches" part.

With a size 11 shoe, this would put the bar over your big toe nail or something.

I think very few people would say, even the hips-lower/bar-a-bit-more-forward crowd, that 6" forward is optimal.
Maybe someone says that? IDK. Or its quite possible rank novices do that.
In many contexts (basic general fitness) it (6") doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#23

Post by Hardartery » Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:35 am

csaba2208 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:13 pm @Hardartery Doesn't make sense to me why raw lifters (may not be the case for everyone) would be able to lift more with a low hip start. I mean it shouldn't make a difference since the hips will eventually rise before the bar leaves the floor as the bar comes back over midfoot (for a limit pull) so we're not getting any additional quad involvement, or activation we would using for example the SS method.
It's about the biomechanics. If you can roll the hips under, which is just a descriptor of how it feels not a thing you can actually do, you pop right off the floor. So, if you get tight, roll the shoulders back and actively try to pull yourself DOWN until the bar is at the shins you are going to hit a lower hip position as well as using what I would call passive force of your core air pressure to basically lever the bar up. It literally feels like the weight becomes lighter than the force of your valsalva trying to push you back up and the bar just kind of pops off the floor, at which point your legs drive it to allow you to push the hips forward and lift. People lifting like Rip describes are trying to lift the weight by brute force as opposed to letting the body do what it will do naturally which is more efficient and effective. Especially if you are wearing a belt, it's easier to "Roll under" with the hips than hold a high hip position and feel like your head is going to explode.

YMMV.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#24

Post by csaba2208 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:44 am

Interesting explanation. I agree that getting tight as hell and trying to lever it might help, but the issue with this explanation is that I don't quite get how that can contribute to upward motion given that the hip height at which the bar leaves the floor at heavy weights doesn't seem to be any lower than what Rip prescribes and won't result in additional quad contribution, regardless of how we try to game the setup. The characteristics at take off are the same regardless where we want to start (bar over midfoot, shoulders just in front of the bar). Just looking at Hall's 500kg or @Hanley 's earlier vid also demonstrate this..

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Re: Deadlift start position

#25

Post by Hardartery » Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:38 am

csaba2208 wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:44 am Interesting explanation. I agree that getting tight as hell and trying to lever it might help, but the issue with this explanation is that I don't quite get how that can contribute to upward motion given that the hip height at which the bar leaves the floor at heavy weights doesn't seem to be any lower than what Rip prescribes and won't result in additional quad contribution, regardless of how we try to game the setup. The characteristics at take off are the same regardless where we want to start (bar over midfoot, shoulders just in front of the bar). Just looking at Hall's 500kg or @Hanley 's earlier vid also demonstrate this..
The difference in part is that the body is already in motion upwards when the bar starts it's ascent, you are injecting energy into the lift already in the form of kinetic force from that movement instead of trying to start your momentum from the moment you break the bar's momentum. You are in effect taking a run at it.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#26

Post by csaba2208 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:47 am

Thanks for the response. A "running start" makes sense. Hard to filter out the bs that's banded around the internet sometimes especially when prominent cult figures are telling you that it shouldn't make a difference, despite personal experience and anecdotal evidence being to the contrary

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Re: Deadlift start position

#27

Post by mgil » Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:12 pm

I haven’t done sets of conventional DLs in ages. As a result, you can witness myriad start positions here:


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Re: Deadlift start position

#28

Post by OverheadDeadlifts » Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:42 am

csaba2208 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:02 pm No joke, but I can actually pull more using a low hip start vs Rip's setup. Anyone else have this happen?
Yeah and I think it’s somewhat to do with spinal flexion. I think most people that try to pull conventional with the entire back in perfect extension like SS wants will end up rounding at some point in order to break a weight off the floor that would otherwise not move.

The more flexion your back is, the lower your hips can be because the back lever is now shorter. So I think if you start with hips “too low” and then your back rounds then technically they’re not “too low” anymore, they’re probably closer to the right place.

This might be why the hips keep wanting to drop as the set goes on despite the coach yelling about high hips. As their back gets more tired and the reps more difficult, the flexion makes lower hips the more efficient position and the body looks for it.

I wonder if bar flex comes into play at a certain weight as well. The pull definitely feels more upright with a whippy bar since the hip angle can open up a bit before the pull really begins and slightly lower hips probably capitalises on this a bit better.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#29

Post by cgeorg » Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:30 am

My deadlift feels strongest when I am pulling back hard on the bar with my lats at the start, which is easier with a more vertical back, which means lower hips. I disagree that hips that start low will necessarily rise to Rip's ideal starting position before the bar leaves the ground - this only happens if the lats aren't fully engaged or strong enough. I think Rip's starting position feels like the sticking point of a squat, and lower hips feel like the stronger bottom of a squat.

Caveats: only ever pulled 455, don't even lift any more.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#30

Post by csaba2208 » Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:01 am

@cgeorg Agreed on lats at the start, but have to agree with Rip re hips. Do you think Hall's lats were too weak/not engaged on his 500kg pull that caused his hips to rise before the bar broke the floor?

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Re: Deadlift start position

#31

Post by cgeorg » Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:09 am

csaba2208 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:01 am @cgeorg Agreed on lats at the start, but have to agree with Rip re hips. Do you think Hall's lats were too weak/not engaged on his 500kg pull that caused his hips to rise before the bar broke the floor?
His hips do rise a touch but they're still low when the bar breaks. I'm talking about rip-height vs. not-rip-height.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#32

Post by csaba2208 » Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:27 am

Watch it slowed down, it's not a touch. Obviously hip height will be different for everyone, but the following landmarks are going to universally be the same for everyone on a limit lift - shoulders being slightly in front of the bar, and the bar over midfoot

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Re: Deadlift start position

#33

Post by csaba2208 » Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:34 am

watch this slowed down (3.46) and other deadlifter posted in this thread.
I think Rip is full of shit on some things, but the mechanical analyses of the lifts is not one of them.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#34

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jul 02, 2024 11:48 am

csaba2208 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:27 am Watch it slowed down, it's not a touch. Obviously hip height will be different for everyone, but the following landmarks are going to universally be the same for everyone on a limit lift - shoulders being slightly in front of the bar, and the bar over midfoot
It actually absolutely is a touch. He bounced it off the shins and then pulled it back in to them, and then dragged it up the shins as much as possible. That's what the baby powder is for, so the legs are slippery, which is also why someone else applied it and not the lifter - you don't want that on your hands for the lift. Mid foot is the same thing as against the shins past a certain size. I cannot actually get the bar further back than mid foot and I am by no means as big as Eddie, there is a zero percent chance of him getting the bar too far back. Also, his entire form is suit dictated and unless you plan to lift in a suit is not something to emulate.

If you watch, at whatever speed you like, you should be able to pick out that he is leveraging the suit. He squats down until the suit wedges the bar off the floor, it would be best described as trying to pull himself under the bar. The suit breaks the bar from the ground and then it's a leg press essentially. The hardest part is getting enough air, the setup uses all of it up and it's REALLY difficult to be able to draw in again once you are strapped in. This is a exaggeration, almost to the point of hyperbole, of the rolling the hips under cue and is counterproductive past a certain depth without a suit. He is pulling himself down until the pressure from the suit becomes greater than the gravity holding the bar and then the goal is to stay as upright as possible and push the hips forward. It is an extremely quad dominant technique, and makes sense given that he largely used heavy squats to train for the lift. It also helps to have long arms and torso to maximize the suit. There is a reason guys that DL a lot wear long socks and have scraped up shins anyway. Icy Hot works well if you don't have baby powder and has the advantage of being able to be applied from a deodorant stick looking thing and not having to actually touch it with your hands.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#35

Post by csaba2208 » Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:40 pm

@Hardartery I think we may be talking about different things. My point was that his hips rise a significant amount from where he squats down (his shoulders are behind the bar) to where the bar actually leaves the floor. The same thing happens with the other deadlift posted in this thread. I guess I misunderstood @cgeorg if he meant that his hips rise a tad when the slack is pulled to when the bar actually leaves the floor.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#36

Post by DanCR » Tue Jul 02, 2024 3:42 pm

csaba2208 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:40 pm @Hardartery I think we may be talking about different things. My point was that his hips rise a significant amount from where he squats down (his shoulders are behind the bar) to where the bar actually leaves the floor. The same thing happens with the other deadlift posted in this thread. I guess I misunderstood @cgeorg if he meant that his hips rise a tad when the slack is pulled to when the bar actually leaves the floor.
You're absolutely right.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#37

Post by Hardartery » Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:21 pm

csaba2208 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:40 pm @Hardartery I think we may be talking about different things. My point was that his hips rise a significant amount from where he squats down (his shoulders are behind the bar) to where the bar actually leaves the floor. The same thing happens with the other deadlift posted in this thread. I guess I misunderstood @cgeorg if he meant that his hips rise a tad when the slack is pulled to when the bar actually leaves the floor.
Could be that we are discussing different things, but I can say that having pulled in a suit that the hip rise is not what you might think just from looking. The bottom position that Eddie hits is him literally squatting under the bar, he is rocking back to get maximum suit involvement and the hip rise is him bringing the shoulders forward to initiate the pull. His shoulders are behind the bar at the bottom, and although it might not look like it the bar is already "Broken" from the ground at that point and he is just riding the suit out of the hole so he can kick the hips forward and finish. You feel the bar leave the floor and float for a bit until you are back in position to actually pull, you know you have it already, it surprises me every single time that I hit it right, I can feel it ditch gravity and I am not lifting yet - I'm still trying to get tucked under. He is rocking under the bar at the bottom and then the hips get pulled back up by the suit until the joints stack and you have lift off. 600 feels like 225.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#38

Post by cgeorg » Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:35 am

csaba2208 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:34 am watch this slowed down (3.46) and other deadlifter posted in this thread.
I think Rip is full of shit on some things, but the mechanical analyses of the lifts is not one of them.
You started out talking about hip height.
csaba2208 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:02 pm No joke, but I can actually pull more using a low hip start vs Rip's setup. Anyone else have this happen?
Seems to contrast with
csaba2208 wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:44 am Interesting explanation. I agree that getting tight as hell and trying to lever it might help, but the issue with this explanation is that I don't quite get how that can contribute to upward motion given that the hip height at which the bar leaves the floor at heavy weights doesn't seem to be any lower than what Rip prescribes and won't result in additional quad contribution, regardless of how we try to game the setup. The characteristics at take off are the same regardless where we want to start (bar over midfoot, shoulders just in front of the bar). Just looking at Hall's 500kg or @Hanley 's earlier vid also demonstrate this..
Then the goalposts shift to shoulder and bar position for some reason:
csaba2208 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:27 am Watch it slowed down, it's not a touch. Obviously hip height will be different for everyone, but the following landmarks are going to universally be the same for everyone on a limit lift - shoulders being slightly in front of the bar, and the bar over midfoot
My entire point is:

Rip's ideal starting position doesn't seem to embed, sources https://startingstrength.com/training/l ... e-deadlift, https://startingstrength.com/article/th ... -3-reasons

Eddie's starting position (when the bar breaks the ground):

Image

This is not Rip approved hip height.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#39

Post by csaba2208 » Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:54 am

@cgeorg
"No joke, but I can actually pull more using a low hip start vs Rip's setup. Anyone else have this happen?"

The hip height once the bar breaks the floor will be the same regardless of where/how I set up on a limit set. But the resulting difference in lifting ability was already discussed.

You seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)

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Re: Deadlift start position

#40

Post by DanCR » Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:24 am

csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:54 amYou seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)
Right. That photo couldn’t be any more of an illustration of Rip’s point. Whether, despite that that’s where the bar breaks the floor, one may yet find some advantage in starting lower, is a separate issue.

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