Coronavirus

[KyleSchuant]

I'm having trouble determining why any of us should find the use of ventilators during the pandemic interesting or worth talking about, not gonna lie.

That particular topic doesn't interest me much. But the same's true of any of the particular topics within the whole clusterfuck that was our response. The point really is,

1. The Experts (TM) insisted on doing X
2. they were warned X would have bad effects
3. but "something must be done, this is something, therefore it must be done."
4. and you were harassed, censored and lost employment if you questioned it too much

Add that up through measures X, X1, X2, X3 and so on and so forth, and you get the clusterfuck we got. And #4 is probably fuelling the bitterness a bit. "See? You see?! I fuckin' told you!"

As a psychologist friend explained to me, "The hah, gotcha! is the greatest joy any human being can experience."

[SSJBartSimpson]

I must have missed the ventilator conspiracy. I just remember ventilators in the news because people couldn't breath and healthcare workers were trying to save them.

[KyleSchuant]

I didn't think it was a conspiracy. Just the "something must be done" thing which led to target fixation and an inevitable crash.

There's a reason all the countries and states etc had pandemic plans before this, so that various experts could sit down, unpanicked, and make plans - ensuring nothing would go awful, even if it didn't go great. Problem was they all got addicted to their daily press conferences, so they tossed the plans out.

Turned out their plans would have done better.

[aurelius]

I didn't think it was a conspiracy. Just the "something must be done" thing which led to target fixation and an inevitable crash.

There's a reason all the countries and states etc had pandemic plans before this, so that various experts could sit down, unpanicked, and make plans - ensuring nothing would go awful, even if it didn't go great. Problem was they all got addicted to their daily press conferences, so they tossed the plans out.

Turned out their plans would have done better.

And @mikeylikey's point of "we must do something" public outcry that results in political overreaction can't be understated. Hindsight 20/20, doing nothing (maybe some of the social distancing stuff) would have had about the same impact. But then EVERY death would have been the fault of the government and politicians. Welcome to stupid human processes 101.

Side note: 90% or more like 95% sure I have the more mild, neighborhood friendly version of COVID right now. Like a summer cold plus being tired all the time. Kind of sucks but nothing a few days of working from home and OTC stuff can't handle. And I'm not wasting my time and money to go to a doctor to get tested.

[cgeorg]

There's a reason all the countries and states etc had pandemic plans before this, so that various experts could sit down, unpanicked, and make plans - ensuring nothing would go awful, even if it didn't go great. Problem was they all got addicted to their daily press conferences, so they tossed the plans out.

Turned out their plans would have done better.

Just looked this up because I remembered reading about Trump getting rid of a pandemic response group during his time in office. Looks like a semi-truth, the group was disbanded as a primary group and its function folded into some other areas. Anywho, at least over here it seems like we may have scrapped the plans before we could use them.

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/p ... KBN21C32C/

[SSJBartSimpson]

As if it means anything, they can't immediately regroup?

[acorn93]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... ropaganda/

The U.S. military’s anti-vax effort began in the spring of 2020 and expanded beyond Southeast Asia before it was terminated in mid-2021, Reuters determined. Tailoring the propaganda campaign to local audiences across Central Asia and the Middle East, the Pentagon used a combination of fake social media accounts on multiple platforms to spread fear of China’s vaccines among Muslims at a time when the virus was killing tens of thousands of people each day. A key part of the strategy: amplify the disputed contention that, because vaccines sometimes contain pork gelatin, China’s shots could be considered forbidden under Islamic law.

Remember, just because they lie sometimes doesn't mean they are lying all the time.

A little behind but why would they deliberately spread anti-China vax info in that part of the world? It’s almost like they were trying to discredit another world power and buy time in order for western vaccines to roll out. It’s almost like this in combination with the pro vax propaganda here would make an American/western industry a lot of money…
@KyleSchuant I have not looked into it deeply so take what I say with a huge grain of salt but I’ve seen it argued that some of the steps leaders took to control a pandemic was not what they were discussing before COVID when planning how to control a pandemic.

[DanCR]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... ropaganda/

The U.S. military’s anti-vax effort began in the spring of 2020 and expanded beyond Southeast Asia before it was terminated in mid-2021, Reuters determined. Tailoring the propaganda campaign to local audiences across Central Asia and the Middle East, the Pentagon used a combination of fake social media accounts on multiple platforms to spread fear of China’s vaccines among Muslims at a time when the virus was killing tens of thousands of people each day. A key part of the strategy: amplify the disputed contention that, because vaccines sometimes contain pork gelatin, China’s shots could be considered forbidden under Islamic law.

Remember, just because they lie sometimes doesn't mean they are lying all the time.

A little behind but why would they deliberately spread anti-China vax info in that part of the world? It’s almost like they were trying to discredit another world power and buy time in order for western vaccines to roll out. It’s almost like this in combination with the pro vax propaganda here would make an American/western industry a lot of money…
@KyleSchuant I have not looked into it deeply so take what I say with a huge grain of salt but I’ve seen it argued that some of the steps leaders took to control a pandemic was not what they were discussing before COVID when planning how to control a pandemic.

It’s addressed in the article.

[aurelius]

A little behind but why would they deliberately spread anti-China vax info in that part of the world? It’s almost like they were trying to discredit another world power and buy time in order for western vaccines to roll out.

It was a military decision. The military does not think like that. The reasons were actually worse.

[acorn93]

@aurelius eh, I disagree that that’s not a motive. US foreign intervention is based on maintaining our status as a world power (and taking as many resources as we can). Money is power. The secretary of defense was also big on pushing the vaccine here.
@DanCR my question was not a legit question. I read the article about a week ago. The gist is the US was trying to counter Chinese misinformation by spreading more misinformation. My argument is that that ended up helping American pharmaceuticals profit. Reuters was critical of the whole ordeal but suggests that Chinese vaccines were less effective than American vaccines. I haven’t looked into the truth of this but considering the campaign started before this detail was revealed only convinces me more that there was a financial motive to undermine China. Discrediting a Chinese vaccine doesn’t help me as an American citizen. It does help big corporations who do a whole lot of lobbying in America.

[DanCR]

@aurelius eh, I disagree that that’s not a motive. US foreign intervention is based on maintaining our status as a world power (and taking as many resources as we can). Money is power. The secretary of defense was also big on pushing the vaccine here.
@DanCR my question was not a legit question. I read the article about a week ago. The gist is the US was trying to counter Chinese misinformation by spreading more misinformation. My argument is that that ended up helping American pharmaceuticals profit. Reuters was critical of the whole ordeal but suggests that Chinese vaccines were less effective than American vaccines. I haven’t looked into the truth of this but considering the campaign started before this detail was revealed only convinces me more that there was a financial motive to undermine China. Discrediting a Chinese vaccine doesn’t help me as an American citizen. It does help big corporations who do a whole lot of lobbying in America.

You’re not under the impression that Trump made decisions to benefit American citizens, are you? The article provides that this all was done to fuck with China. Totally on brand.

[acorn93]

@aurelius eh, I disagree that that’s not a motive. US foreign intervention is based on maintaining our status as a world power (and taking as many resources as we can). Money is power. The secretary of defense was also big on pushing the vaccine here.
@DanCR my question was not a legit question. I read the article about a week ago. The gist is the US was trying to counter Chinese misinformation by spreading more misinformation. My argument is that that ended up helping American pharmaceuticals profit. Reuters was critical of the whole ordeal but suggests that Chinese vaccines were less effective than American vaccines. I haven’t looked into the truth of this but considering the campaign started before this detail was revealed only convinces me more that there was a financial motive to undermine China. Discrediting a Chinese vaccine doesn’t help me as an American citizen. It does help big corporations who do a whole lot of lobbying in America.

You’re not under the impression that Trump made decisions to benefit American citizens, are you? The article provides that this all was done to fuck with China. Totally on brand.

How does making Pfizer and similar companies richer benefit me though? I also don’t think our foreign policy changes all that drastically based on the president at the time. At least not in my lifetime. Trump was more vocal about China and Biden administration is more vocal about Russia but both support the same sort of tactics (or at least are complacent). Circling back, Trump was also kind to big corporations during his presidency and was pushing for an American vaccine so again I don’t see how the pentagon strategy helps me as an ordinary citizen.

[DanCR]

You’re not under the impression that Trump made decisions to benefit American citizens, are you?

I don’t see how the pentagon strategy helps me as an ordinary citizen.

[acorn93]

You’re not under the impression that Trump made decisions to benefit American citizens, are you?

I don’t see how the pentagon strategy helps me as an ordinary citizen.

I honestly don’t understand what you’re arguing.

[DanCR]

You’re not under the impression that Trump made decisions to benefit American citizens, are you?

I don’t see how the pentagon strategy helps me as an ordinary citizen.

I honestly don’t understand what you’re arguing.

Your theory is that we spread misinformation regarding China's vaccine so that we could sell more of our own, and part of your reasoning was the alleged lack of any other justification. In further promoting that point, you asserted the non sequitur that our actions didn't benefit you as an American citizen.

I pointed out that in fact a justification was provided, and one that tracks quite well with the Trump administration's modus operandi. (Going further, I don't think that your theory makes any sense at all. Once a population has been made to distrust vaccines, that population isn't going to parse the manufacturers and geographic origin. As the article noted, vaccination rates in the area were abysmal, because the population was turned off to vaccination generally. Folks did not say to themselves, "These Chinese vaxes sound bad. I'll wait for and get an American vax instead!" Our actions closed a potential market for vaccines; they didn't open one.)

Separately, for shits and giggles I addressed your non sequitur by pointing out by implication that the Trump administration's actions often were not
intended to benefit ordinary citizens. You reiterated that, in fact, you did not benefit as an ordinary citizen. Well... right. As I said. However, that in no way mandates (or even supports, really) the theory that our actions were intended to benefit Moderna. It's not an either / or.

[acorn93]

The first screenshot is of them promoting American vaccines and discrediting Chinese vaccines.
The second screenshot is them telling Facebook this was “counterterrorism.”
Saying this was counterterrorism implies that they were doing it to protect American citizens. Promoting American vaccines helps American pharmaceuticals get wealthier.

[acorn93]

@DanCR they specifically kept saying things like the Chinese vaccines have pork in them to discredit them and then promoted American vaccines. When Facebook found some of their posts they said those accounts were to fight terrorists. If the accounts were specifically to counter terrorists, how is that not saying these actions were to protect Americans?

[aurelius]

@DanCR they specifically kept saying things like the Chinese vaccines have pork in them to discredit them and then promoted American vaccines. When Facebook found some of their posts they said those accounts were to fight terrorists. If the accounts were specifically to counter terrorists, how is that not saying these actions were to protect Americans?

how about read the article that states why the military discredited the Chinese vaccines.

[acorn93]

@aurelius you know you consistently have been quite rude to me because I having a differing opinion. I read the article. The military claimed it was to counter china’s claims about the origin among other things. I provided 2 screenshots of information in the article to support my argument. So since clearly you think I can’t read please explain to me why the military carried this out.

[acorn93]

@aurelius I also already acknowledged in an earlier post that our foreign policy is based around us remaining as a world power. This would imply preventing other countries from gaining power. I’m not naive enough to think China is the good guy but god damn the US makes a lot of decisions to keep power that benefits big corporations at the end of the day.