Deadlift start position

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Hardartery
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Re: Deadlift start position

#41

Post by Hardartery » Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:28 am

csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:54 am @cgeorg
"No joke, but I can actually pull more using a low hip start vs Rip's setup. Anyone else have this happen?"

The hip height once the bar breaks the floor will be the same regardless of where/how I set up on a limit set. But the resulting difference in lifting ability was already discussed.

You seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)
Eddie could achieve that same position of shoulders and bar while also having a higher hip height. So could anyone else. He is positioned like he is doing a Clean and not a Deadlift and most lifters will generate more power with a higher hip position in that setup. Unless they are wearing a DL suit or briefs. He is removing some leverage from the hamstrings and lower back for the start of the lift because the suit will more than make up for that and it allows greater use of those muscles at a higher point in the lift. That start position RAW is much snappier and powerful on a Clean, but is a negative when you cross that line between a weight you can clean and a weight that is definitely heavier than what you can Clean. Unless of course you are an extreme outlier in body length proportions.

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Hanley
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Re: Deadlift start position

#42

Post by Hanley » Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:28 am

DanCR wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:24 am
csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:54 amYou seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)
Right. That photo couldn’t be any more of an illustration of Rip’s point. Whether, despite that that’s where the bar breaks the floor, one may yet find some advantage in starting lower, is a separate issue.
You can definitely start too high. And that's bad (you'll lift less weight). The good folks at Aasgard definitely had me starting too high at the first seminar I went to (10+ years ago now)

I definitely take an "err on the side of too low" approach.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#43

Post by csaba2208 » Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:41 am

@Hardartery I'm not arguing what can be achieved in the bottom position. My point is that there isn't much wiggle room (unless you fuck it up and stiff leg the thing) at takeoff and that I agree with Rip's analysis.
@Hanley Agreed. Thrall's video gives a good proxy for when hips are correct (although not foolproof for everyone) knees being flush with front of arms

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Re: Deadlift start position

#44

Post by Hardartery » Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:46 am

csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:41 am @Hardartery I'm not arguing what can be achieved in the bottom position. My point is that there isn't much wiggle room (unless you fuck it up and stiff leg the thing) at takeoff and that I agree with Rip's analysis.
@Hanley Agreed. Thrall's video gives a good proxy for when hips are correct (although not foolproof for everyone) knees being flush with front of arms
I don't necessarily disagree with Rip on this, and many guys do basically stiff leg it which is also counter productive and holds great risk of injury, so agree completely there I believe.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#45

Post by Hanley » Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:46 am

csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:41 amThrall's video gives a good proxy for when hips are correct (although not foolproof for everyone) knees being flush with front of arms
I don't see that video in this thread...can you post it?

I don't know why knees and arms could/should be flush at the strongest position. Maybe, but it's not obvious to me.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#46

Post by csaba2208 » Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:49 am

@Hanley my bad -

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Re: Deadlift start position

#47

Post by Hanley » Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:05 am

csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:49 am @Hanley my bad -
Thanks! I'll watch later today.

We used to have a physicist around these parts (dude named Savs) who would write-up really thorough mechanical analyses of various barbell-mechanics conundrums. At one point he tackled the deadlift start position (I'll dig around and see if I can find it). Literally the best mechanics models I've ever encountered (he also wrestled with the physics of lifting belts...that was great too).

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Re: Deadlift start position

#48

Post by csaba2208 » Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:11 am

@Hanley No problem, let me know what you think. It seems to work well to gauge the start position.
If you manage to find the writings I'd love to have a read. Thanks!

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Re: Deadlift start position

#49

Post by DanCR » Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:27 am

Hanley wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 7:28 am
DanCR wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:24 am
csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:54 amYou seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)
Right. That photo couldn’t be any more of an illustration of Rip’s point. Whether, despite that that’s where the bar breaks the floor, one may yet find some advantage in starting lower, is a separate issue.
You can definitely start too high. And that's bad (you'll lift less weight). The good folks at Aasgard definitely had me starting too high at the first seminar I went to (10+ years ago now)

I definitely take an "err on the side of too low" approach.
I get that. I recall a few years ago a video in which Rip flat out had Stan Efferding doing stiff legged deadlifts and was calling them deadlifts. Stan being Stan, it didn’t even matter, but none of us are him.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#50

Post by csaba2208 » Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:30 am

@DanCR Think you're referring to this vid

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Re: Deadlift start position

#51

Post by DanCR » Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:09 am

csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:30 am @DanCR Think you're referring to this vid
Yup. First two reps are reasonable and then Rip starts telling him to start even higher and reps three and four are comical. On the last rep you can see him set up where Rip tells him to, but before he pulls it he dips down to where he was for the first two reps.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#52

Post by Hanley » Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:03 am

DanCR wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:09 am
csaba2208 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 8:30 am @DanCR Think you're referring to this vid
Yup. First two reps are reasonable and then Rip starts telling him to start even higher and reps three and four are comical. On the last rep you can see him set up where Rip tells him to, but before he pulls it he dips down to where he was for the first two reps.
Stan isn’t quite as big or strong as me, but those later reps in the vid look like my deads after “The Seminar”. And - man - those mechanics REALLY trashed my lower back.

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Hanley
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Re: Deadlift start position

#53

Post by Hanley » Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:07 am

@Savs, come back.

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Re: Deadlift start position

#54

Post by mgil » Wed Jul 03, 2024 3:01 pm

Miss that guy.

Anyhow, I’m guessing that the high hips cause a bit of lumbar extension that gets the lower back angry. Couples well with the lumbar flexion in press 2.0

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Re: Deadlift start position

#55

Post by Wilhelm » Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:25 pm

Fat me did a vid -




And what my slack pull and unison rise looks like at normal speed

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