Deadlift start position

[Hardartery]

@cgeorg
"No joke, but I can actually pull more using a low hip start vs Rip's setup. Anyone else have this happen?"

The hip height once the bar breaks the floor will be the same regardless of where/how I set up on a limit set. But the resulting difference in lifting ability was already discussed.

You seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)

Eddie could achieve that same position of shoulders and bar while also having a higher hip height. So could anyone else. He is positioned like he is doing a Clean and not a Deadlift and most lifters will generate more power with a higher hip position in that setup. Unless they are wearing a DL suit or briefs. He is removing some leverage from the hamstrings and lower back for the start of the lift because the suit will more than make up for that and it allows greater use of those muscles at a higher point in the lift. That start position RAW is much snappier and powerful on a Clean, but is a negative when you cross that line between a weight you can clean and a weight that is definitely heavier than what you can Clean. Unless of course you are an extreme outlier in body length proportions.

[Hanley]

You seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)

Right. That photo couldn’t be any more of an illustration of Rip’s point. Whether, despite that that’s where the bar breaks the floor, one may yet find some advantage in starting lower, is a separate issue.

You can definitely start too high. And that's bad (you'll lift less weight). The good folks at Aasgard definitely had me starting too high at the first seminar I went to (10+ years ago now)

I definitely take an "err on the side of too low" approach.

[csaba2208]

@Hardartery I'm not arguing what can be achieved in the bottom position. My point is that there isn't much wiggle room (unless you fuck it up and stiff leg the thing) at takeoff and that I agree with Rip's analysis.
@Hanley Agreed. Thrall's video gives a good proxy for when hips are correct (although not foolproof for everyone) knees being flush with front of arms

[Hardartery]

@Hardartery I'm not arguing what can be achieved in the bottom position. My point is that there isn't much wiggle room (unless you fuck it up and stiff leg the thing) at takeoff and that I agree with Rip's analysis.
@Hanley Agreed. Thrall's video gives a good proxy for when hips are correct (although not foolproof for everyone) knees being flush with front of arms

I don't necessarily disagree with Rip on this, and many guys do basically stiff leg it which is also counter productive and holds great risk of injury, so agree completely there I believe.

[Hanley]

Thrall's video gives a good proxy for when hips are correct (although not foolproof for everyone) knees being flush with front of arms

I don't see that video in this thread...can you post it?

I don't know why knees and arms could/should be flush at the strongest position. Maybe, but it's not obvious to me.

[csaba2208]

@Hanley my bad -

[Hanley]

@Hanley my bad -

Thanks! I'll watch later today.

We used to have a physicist around these parts (dude named Savs) who would write-up really thorough mechanical analyses of various barbell-mechanics conundrums. At one point he tackled the deadlift start position (I'll dig around and see if I can find it). Literally the best mechanics models I've ever encountered (he also wrestled with the physics of lifting belts...that was great too).

[csaba2208]

@Hanley No problem, let me know what you think. It seems to work well to gauge the start position.
If you manage to find the writings I'd love to have a read. Thanks!

[DanCR]

You seem to think there will be one universal hip height for everyone - your anthropometry dictates how high/low your hips will be. Eddie's start position is Rip approved. I wasn't shifting goalposts - merely making the point that once the shoulders come slightly in front of the bar and the bar back over midfoot, it will be the right hip height for your body (precisely what Rip says)

Right. That photo couldn’t be any more of an illustration of Rip’s point. Whether, despite that that’s where the bar breaks the floor, one may yet find some advantage in starting lower, is a separate issue.

You can definitely start too high. And that's bad (you'll lift less weight). The good folks at Aasgard definitely had me starting too high at the first seminar I went to (10+ years ago now)

I definitely take an "err on the side of too low" approach.

I get that. I recall a few years ago a video in which Rip flat out had Stan Efferding doing stiff legged deadlifts and was calling them deadlifts. Stan being Stan, it didn’t even matter, but none of us are him.

[csaba2208]

@DanCR Think you're referring to this vid

[DanCR]

@DanCR Think you're referring to this vid

Yup. First two reps are reasonable and then Rip starts telling him to start even higher and reps three and four are comical. On the last rep you can see him set up where Rip tells him to, but before he pulls it he dips down to where he was for the first two reps.

[Hanley]

@DanCR Think you're referring to this vid

Yup. First two reps are reasonable and then Rip starts telling him to start even higher and reps three and four are comical. On the last rep you can see him set up where Rip tells him to, but before he pulls it he dips down to where he was for the first two reps.

Stan isn’t quite as big or strong as me, but those later reps in the vid look like my deads after “The Seminar”. And - man - those mechanics REALLY trashed my lower back.

[Hanley]

@Savs, come back.

[mgil]

Miss that guy.

Anyhow, I’m guessing that the high hips cause a bit of lumbar extension that gets the lower back angry. Couples well with the lumbar flexion in press 2.0

[Wilhelm]

Fat me did a vid -




And what my slack pull and unison rise looks like at normal speed

[ChasingCurls69]

I don't know why the heuristic of knees flush with forearms works, but it has been really useful for adjusting DL start positions since I first heard it from Thrall's video.

[dw]

I don't know why the heuristic of knees flush with forearms works, but it has been really useful for adjusting DL start positions since I first heard it from Thrall's video.

I don't do DLs anymore but I agree.

Before I learned this I couldn't really rep out DLs at a satisfactory pace because the SS style setup took too long. Knees flush is much faster and seems to get the position correct.

[Hanley]

I don't know why the heuristic of knees flush with forearms works, but it has been really useful for adjusting DL start positions since I first heard it from Thrall's video.

Just seems like this is an accident of "average anthropometry". I don't understand why this would be mechanically ideal.

I just checked a few of my heaviest pulls...my knees are well forward of my arm when the bar breaks off the floor.

[ChasingCurls69]

I don't know why the heuristic of knees flush with forearms works, but it has been really useful for adjusting DL start positions since I first heard it from Thrall's video.

Just seems like this is an accident of "average anthropometry". I don't understand why this would be mechanically ideal.

I just checked a few of my heaviest pulls...my knees are well forward of my arm when the bar breaks off the floor.

I could definitely see it just being an accident of average of anthropometry. Do you have any of those pulls posted here to look at? I haven't seen too many where the knees were more than a little forward in the start.

[Hanley]

I don't know why the heuristic of knees flush with forearms works, but it has been really useful for adjusting DL start positions since I first heard it from Thrall's video.

Just seems like this is an accident of "average anthropometry". I don't understand why this would be mechanically ideal.

I just checked a few of my heaviest pulls...my knees are well forward of my arm when the bar breaks off the floor.

Do you have any of those pulls posted here to look at?

Here: