Sumo deadlift thread

[Hanley]

@OCG, I think @KDW has a good sense of the heuristic for sumo. For guys, if the bar is touching your junk at lockout, you might consider sumo.

Huh. That is good. Anyway, @OCG, I agree with @@KOTJ. The conventional-pull struggles of the long-torso-short-arms peeps are very real (super long femurs, tiny torso is actually way less of a problem). I've seen it many, many times. They can't set their backs. I think there might be a basic trig explanation for difficulties with given segment lengths...I need to draw some shit.

[perman]

@OCG, I think @KDW has a good sense of the heuristic for sumo. For guys, if the bar is touching your junk at lockout, you might consider sumo.

Huh. That is good. Anyway, @OCG, I agree with @@KOTJ. The conventional-pull struggles of the long-torso-short-arms peeps are very real (super long femurs, tiny torso is actually way less of a problem). I've seen it many, many times.

I'm this demographic almost, I have normal arms but a long torso. Though I think the main issue is how far down the thighs your hands are, not necessarily whether you actually have short arms are not. My problem is keeping extension locked in, not getting into position. My solution the last half year has merely been to keep the weight low enough that I don't lose extension.

I suspect this is more a muscular thing, weak backs compared to their demands (long lever), strong legs compared to their demands (short levers), so that the discrepancy between the strict straight-backed deadlift and the round-back deadlift is just bigger than for more balanced folk, and this demographic more easily default to the latter for ego.

[Hanley]

@perman : yeah, maybe. But I’ve worked with outlying peeps who seem flex their spine while pulling any load conventionally. They just can’t get into position.

[broseph]

Does anyone have a go-to video or author for explaining/demonstrating sumo deadlift form? I'm guessing Izzy's article and demo would be decent starting point.

[PatrickDB]

I’m also curious about sumo mechanics. This seemed like the best video on YouTube, but I can’t vouch for the accuracy of the information.

[Manveer]

Everyone points me to that video. Bryce Krawczyk=sumo god

[KoolaidMannn]

Yeah that’s the best video regarding sumo I’ve seen, extremely helpful

[simonrest]

The conventional-pull struggles of the long-torso-short-arms peeps are very real (super long femurs, tiny torso is actually way less of a problem). I've seen it many, many times. They can't set their backs. I think there might be a basic trig explanation for difficulties with given segment lengths...I need to draw some shit.

you know I was one of them for a long time (like my first 2.5 years of training), complete with a better squat than deadlift at times. I switched to sumo as my main deadlift variant for a year, always pulling conventional as back off sets. Eventually my sumo pulls started stalling, but my conventional kept rising and surpassed my sumo pulls and I switched back to conventional as my main variant. But something had happened: in that year of pulling sumo I seem to have taught myself how to set my back even on conventional pulls. I still have some upper back rounding but I'm able to set my lumbar spine.

Does anyone have a go-to video or author for explaining/demonstrating sumo deadlift form? I'm guessing Izzy's article and demo would be decent starting point.

I learned from this video:


i like his explanation of start with your quads and finish with your hips.

[mgil]

FWIW, I reached out to Rori Alter and suggested (based on her IG) a sumo pull video series. She seemed very receptive to that idea, so you might see that coming out from her soon.

[LexAnderson]

The Ed Coan video helped me with my set up a lot. He has a great way of explaining things without getting too bogged down in the details.

[mbasic]

I think that sumo is of use to people with a short back and long legs, because the wide stance artificially shortens the leg segment and creates a more vertical back angle. Try them and see whet they FEEL like, and if you're built this way they will probably be of help.

-Mark Rippetoe

https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... post216185

[KDW]

I think I said this on a thread back on SS that I think was deleted but, I think everyone can do a narrow sumo. Everyone cannot conventional pull correctly. Just really no reason for a narrow sumo to be the go to lift. It forces proper form, because it is much harder to break the ground without having sound mechanics. Because proper mechanics are more "required" for the narrow sumo, it helps the lifter to learn how to actually use the hips and what this feels like. This transfers to squats and other hip extension type lifts really well. More often than not, I see novice (and experienced) conventional pullers lift with their glutes and hamstrings checked out and lower back doing most of the work. It is not usual to see someone deadlift like Mike T. I think there is something anthropometric going on there. Anyway, I don't really care if one has a larger moment arm over another if the longer moment arm is being acted upon by concentric and eccentric erector contractions instead of hamstring/adductor/gluteus concentric contractions with isometric erector contractions. It is just fucking you up over time, and I guess for some people that's cool. OK. I'm done.

[anelson]

I googled "narrow sumo deadlift" just to get an idea of what they look like, and this thread popped up as one of the results. Is it the one you're thinking of, @KDW?

[Murelli]

I think I said this on a thread back on SS that I think was deleted but, I think everyone can do a narrow sumo. Everyone cannot conventional pull correctly. Just really no reason for a narrow sumo to be the go to lift. It forces proper form, because it is much harder to break the ground without having sound mechanics. Because proper mechanics are more "required" for the narrow sumo, it helps the lifter to learn how to actually use the hips and what this feels like. This transfers to squats and other hip extension type lifts really well. More often than not, I see novice (and experienced) conventional pullers lift with their glutes and hamstrings checked out and lower back doing most of the work. It is not usual to see someone deadlift like Mike T. I think there is something anthropometric going on there. Anyway, I don't really care if one has a larger moment arm over another if the longer moment arm is being acted upon by concentric and eccentric erector contractions instead of hamstring/adductor/gluteus concentric contractions with isometric erector contractions. It is just fucking you up over time, and I guess for some people that's cool. OK. I'm done.

I'm going to try this narrow stance sumo for 2018 and see where does it go.

[TimK]

More often than not, I see novice (and experienced) conventional pullers lift with their glutes and hamstrings checked out and lower back doing most of the work.

I don't know what this means. If the glutes and hamstrings don't contract, the bar isn't going anywhere, and if you pull conventional with a rounded back the spinal erectors are working less, not more.

[simonrest]

I don't know what this means. If the glutes and hamstrings don't contract, the bar isn't going anywhere, and if you pull conventional with a rounded back the spinal erectors are working less, not more.

I don't have the language to explain this, but I know what it means because I've felt it. Yeah, the glutes and hamstrings still have to move, but it's like they're not adding anything and all the work is being driven by the lower back. It's like doing a good morning with the bar in your hands not on your back. (I also think that a certain internet coach enforcing high hips contributes to this form issue)

[TimK]

It's like doing a good morning with the bar in your hands not on your back.

Yeah but the glutes and hamstrings are the prime movers in a good morning, so...

[simonrest]

It's like doing a good morning with the bar in your hands not on your back.

Yeah but the glutes and hamstrings are the prime movers in a good morning, so...

See, I told you I couldn't explain it.

It's like the difference between art and porn: you know it when you see it

[chrisd]

I don't know what this means. If the glutes and hamstrings don't contract, the bar isn't going anywhere, and if you pull conventional with a rounded back the spinal erectors are working less, not more.

I don't have the language to explain this, but I know what it means because I've felt it. Yeah, the glutes and hamstrings still have to move, but it's like they're not adding anything and all the work is being driven by the lower back. It's like doing a good morning with the bar in your hands not on your back. (I also think that a certain internet coach enforcing high hips contributes to this form issue)

Do you mean that people extend their hips while allowing the lumbar to go into flexion, so not raising the bar as much as they might. From this (dreadful) position, it is easier to use the shorter gluteals and hamstrings until the spine is upright enough to extend the spine without actually ejecting disks and hitting passers by ?

[simonrest]

Do you mean that people extend their hips while allowing the lumbar to go into flexion, so not raising the bar as much as they might. From this (dreadful) position, it is easier to use the shorter gluteals and hamstrings until the spine is upright enough to extend the spine without actually ejecting disks and hitting passers by ?

I don't want to put words in KDW's mouth, but for me it's possible to shift emphasis onto the spinal Erectors during a deadlift. It's not that the other muscles aren't working it's more that by not actively trying to recruit them I reach the limit of my Erectors because I'm not involving the other muscles as much or as accurately as I should. It's learned poor form, and I don't let this happen anymore, but I sometimes see it in other people.