Volume % to set heavy PR's

[cole]

It seems a popular idea that volume at lower percentage (~70%) is best for driving up strength. My concern is that working with that much of an offset will not help drive up 1RM or 3RM. What percentages do you all think are best to work with if the lifter is doing a volume/ intensity based program like 4 day TM? Currently I'm doing sets of 5 at 70% 1RM for volume and sets of 3 at 85% for intensity days. Im starting to think I need to raise volume % in order to drive up intensity day weights. Thoughts?

[MattimusMaximus]

@cole I had similar concerns doing this as well but I've been spinning my wheels at higher percentages for far too long now that I decided to give Hanley's programming a shot. The one thing I do feel comfortable about is performing a single @8 first and then backing down to 70% from the estimated 1RM that the @8 would calculate to.

This way I'm still getting heavy doses of intensity but lower intensity follows for the volume work. Last night's 6 sets of 300 for 5's was brutal. I actually think my 4 sets of 5 between 320-355 lbs the other day was easier both mentally and physically but that could just be my lack of working capacity thus far. Hope it feels easier, the DOMS is real today lol.

[d0uevenlift]

It seems a popular idea that volume at lower percentage (~70%) is best for driving up strength. My concern is that working with that much of an offset will not help drive up 1RM or 3RM. What percentages do you all think are best to work with if the lifter is doing a volume/ intensity based program like 4 day TM? Currently I'm doing sets of 5 at 70% 1RM for volume and sets of 3 at 85% for intensity days. Im starting to think I need to raise volume % in order to drive up intensity day weights. Thoughts?

I think more context is needed. 70% on sets of 8-10 reps, for example, has its place in a block or cycle as much as triples at 84-86%.

If you're doing a 4-day TM (which I think you shouldn't be doing, but that's just me), your volume day could be in the 5 sets of a 5-6 rep range at around 76-81% so that you get a good dose of stress (again, context here matters) and be good to go on intensity day. I mean, you could cycle volume day however you want in order to get the stress you need at a manageable intensity.

[KarlM]

@cole I know you like your programming (volume early in the week with intensity stuff later). Maybe a simple way to incorporate the stuff in the HPS thread is to add a heavy single @8 on your volume day (the P) plus a set or two more at 70% (the H), then drop your intensities on your second workout to about 80% and do 4-5s X 3r (the S).

[mgil]

It seems a popular idea that volume at lower percentage (~70%) is best for driving up strength. My concern is that working with that much of an offset will not help drive up 1RM or 3RM. What percentages do you all think are best to work with if the lifter is doing a volume/ intensity based program like 4 day TM? Currently I'm doing sets of 5 at 70% 1RM for volume and sets of 3 at 85% for intensity days. Im starting to think I need to raise volume % in order to drive up intensity day weights. Thoughts?

How many sets of 5 @70% and what's your rest in between?

[wk105]

I got my squat to 600 on x1@8 followed by 74%x5x9 as my main squat day. 70%x5x6, which I've tried recently, hasn't worked as well, although it's worked slightly better for deadlifting.

[Manveer]

I got my squat to 600 on x1@8 followed by 74%x5x9 as my main squat day. 70%x5x6, which I've tried recently, hasn't worked, although it's worked slightly better for deadlifting.

I tried 74%x5x9 squats followed by 74%x5x9 deadlifts the next day. I think I had insomnia after the deadlifts. Beyond my ability to recover.

[wk105]

I got my squat to 600 on x1@8 followed by 74%x5x9 as my main squat day. 70%x5x6, which I've tried recently, hasn't worked, although it's worked slightly better for deadlifting.

I tried 74%x5x9 squats followed by 74%x5x9 deadlifts the next day. I think I had insomnia after the deadlifts. Beyond my ability to recover.

Haha. Hanging out in the gym with me one time, my son said, 'Dad, you must really enjoy being in bed where there aren't any weights'. I do. But sometimes they haunt my dreams.

[cole]

It seems a popular idea that volume at lower percentage (~70%) is best for driving up strength. My concern is that working with that much of an offset will not help drive up 1RM or 3RM. What percentages do you all think are best to work with if the lifter is doing a volume/ intensity based program like 4 day TM? Currently I'm doing sets of 5 at 70% 1RM for volume and sets of 3 at 85% for intensity days. Im starting to think I need to raise volume % in order to drive up intensity day weights. Thoughts?

How many sets of 5 @70% and what's your rest in between?

I do 6 sets of 5@70% with 3-5 min rest. I could easily do more sets and be fine if I thought it would help make me stronger later in the week when I do my sets of 3. The thing is, I can keep increasing volume weights for a long time with ease, but my heavy day only last 4-6 weeks of increasing weight before I poop.

[cole]

@cole I know you like your programming (volume early in the week with intensity stuff later). Maybe a simple way to incorporate the stuff in the HPS thread is to add a heavy single @8 on your volume day (the P) plus a set or two more at 70% (the H), then drop your intensities on your second workout to about 80% and do 4-5s X 3r (the S).

Not a bad idea and I'm starting to like the idea of HPS. But I'm not switching my programming until I've run the one I'm doing now completely into the ground.

[KarlM]

@cole I know you like your programming (volume early in the week with intensity stuff later). Maybe a simple way to incorporate the stuff in the HPS thread is to add a heavy single @8 on your volume day (the P) plus a set or two more at 70% (the H), then drop your intensities on your second workout to about 80% and do 4-5s X 3r (the S).

Not a bad idea and I'm starting to like the idea of HPS. But I'm not switching my programming until I've run the one I'm doing now completely into the ground.

Spoken like a true masochist

[cole]

I got my squat to 600 on x1@8 followed by 74%x5x9 as my main squat day. 70%x5x6, which I've tried recently, hasn't worked as well, although it's worked slightly better for deadlifting.

You're crazy

[Hanley]

@cole I know you like your programming (volume early in the week with intensity stuff later). Maybe a simple way to incorporate the stuff in the HPS thread is to add a heavy single @8 on your volume day (the P) plus a set or two more at 70% (the H), then drop your intensities on your second workout to about 80% and do 4-5s X 3r (the S).

Not a bad idea and I'm starting to like the idea of HPS. But I'm not switching my programming until I've run the one I'm doing now completely into the ground.

I think Karl is spot-on. If you've already "pooped", why do you keep doing multiple sets of triples at 85%?

As you're doing it now...I think you're getting good base tonnage at 70% for muscle growth (who said 70% was good for "strength"? It's terrible for the neural and skill components of strength...in fact you will likely "detrain" strength using 70% exclusively), too much tonnage at high intensity, and zero tonnage in the intermediate zone. That's just not gonna work.

[MattimusMaximus]

@cole I know you like your programming (volume early in the week with intensity stuff later). Maybe a simple way to incorporate the stuff in the HPS thread is to add a heavy single @8 on your volume day (the P) plus a set or two more at 70% (the H), then drop your intensities on your second workout to about 80% and do 4-5s X 3r (the S).

Not a bad idea and I'm starting to like the idea of HPS. But I'm not switching my programming until I've run the one I'm doing now completely into the ground.

I think Karl is spot-on. If you've already "pooped", why do you keep doing multiple sets of triples at 85%?

As you're doing it now...I think you're getting good base tonnage at 70% for muscle growth (who said 70% was good for "strength"? It's terrible for the neural and skill components of strength...in fact you will likely "detrain" strength using 70% exclusively), too much tonnage at high intensity, and zero tonnage in the intermediate zone. That's just not gonna work.

So would you say that optimal is minimal tonnage at higher intensity, medium tonnage at the intermediate zone, and highest tonnage at the 70% zone? I think that's basically what you programmed for me.

That does make sense as per Selye's model. Higher intensity = lower volume, lower intensity = higher volume.

Sorry if this should be obvious... just trying to get all the pieced info from different threads and putting it all together in my head movies. So volume @70% increases muscle size (hypertrophy) which increases strength potential? Then 80% for triples increases that strength? Then 85-90%+ is testing/skill?

[Hanley]

So would you say that optimal is minimal tonnage at higher intensity, medium tonnage at the intermediate zone, and highest tonnage at the 70% zone? I think that's basically what you programmed for me.

Nah, I wouldn't say that.

I'd say optimal is max 48-72 hour recoverable tonnage at 65%-75%, max 48-72 hour recoverable tonnage at 75%ish-85% and max 48-72 hour recoverable tonnage at 85%+. Fatigue doesn't scale linearly with intensity, so you've a fuckton more volume at 70% than 85%+. This general 48-72 hour rule doesn't apply to peaking and test weeks, because you're working at such high intensities that 72-hour recovery might not be possible.

Sorry if this should be obvious... just trying to get all the pieced info from different threads and putting it all together in my head movies. So volume @70% increases muscle size (hypertrophy) which increases strength potential? Then 80% for triples increases that strength? Then 85-90%+ is testing/skill?

Yeah. "Strength" is really a nice combo of hypertrophy + "neuro & strength skill". "Neuro" sounds more pretentious than I want it to. What I mean is that 80% represents the probable threshold at which you're training the near-entire pool of IIx fibers on every single rep done outside of fatigue. "Training" them means not only "growing them" but also improving shit like frequency of twitches.

85% offers moar better training of the neuro elements and also offers the training of "volitional shit" like bracing, anxiety management/arousal, self-cueing, etc. "Volitional" also sounds more pretentious than I want. Meh.

[Wilhelm]

So would you say that optimal is minimal tonnage at higher intensity, medium tonnage at the intermediate zone, and highest tonnage at the 70% zone? I think that's basically what you programmed for me.

Nah, I wouldn't say that.

I'd say optimal is max 48-72 hour tonnage at 65%-75%, max 48-72 hour tonnage at 75%ish-85% and max 48-72 hour recoverable tonnage at 85%+. Fatigue doesn't scale linearly with intensity, so you've a fuckton more volume at 70% than 85%+. This general 48-72 hour rule doesn't apply to peaking and test weeks, because you're working at such high intensities that 72-hour recovery might not be possible.

Sorry if this should be obvious... just trying to get all the pieced info from different threads and putting it all together in my head movies. So volume @70% increases muscle size (hypertrophy) which increases strength potential? Then 80% for triples increases that strength? Then 85-90%+ is testing/skill?

Yeah. "Strength" is really a nice combo of hypertrophy + "neuro & strength skill". "Neuro" sounds more pretentious than I want it to. What I mean is that 80% represents the probable threshold at which you're training the near-entire pool of IIx fibers on every single rep done outside of fatigue. "Training" them means not only "growing them" but also improving shit like frequency of twitches.

85% offers moar better training of the neuro elements and also offers the training of "volitional shit" like bracing, anxiety management/arousal, self-cueing, etc. "Volitional" also sounds more pretentious than I want. Meh.

^ this seems like a good candidate for the training forum quotes thread..

[Hanley]

So would you say that optimal is minimal tonnage at higher intensity, medium tonnage at the intermediate zone, and highest tonnage at the 70% zone? I think that's basically what you programmed for me.

Nah, I wouldn't say that.

I'd say optimal is max 48-72 hour tonnage at 65%-75%, max 48-72 hour tonnage at 75%ish-85% and max 48-72 hour recoverable tonnage at 85%+. Fatigue doesn't scale linearly with intensity, so you've a fuckton more volume at 70% than 85%+. This general 48-72 hour rule doesn't apply to peaking and test weeks, because you're working at such high intensities that 72-hour recovery might not be possible.

Sorry if this should be obvious... just trying to get all the pieced info from different threads and putting it all together in my head movies. So volume @70% increases muscle size (hypertrophy) which increases strength potential? Then 80% for triples increases that strength? Then 85-90%+ is testing/skill?

Yeah. "Strength" is really a nice combo of hypertrophy + "neuro & strength skill". "Neuro" sounds more pretentious than I want it to. What I mean is that 80% represents the probable threshold at which you're training the near-entire pool of IIx fibers on every single rep done outside of fatigue. "Training" them means not only "growing them" but also improving shit like frequency of twitches.

85% offers moar better training of the neuro elements and also offers the training of "volitional shit" like bracing, anxiety management/arousal, self-cueing, etc. "Volitional" also sounds more pretentious than I want. Meh.

^ this seems like a good candidate for the training forum quotes thread..

Oh, man. I would have made it much prettier sounding if I had known.

[cole]

in fact you will likely "detrain" strength using 70% exclusively

one day at 70% for tonnage accumulation and practice, one day (72hrs later) at 85% for strength, nueral skill all muscle fiber type...thats 2x week. i guess you are kind of hitting the nail on the head bc my whole point is i dont think the 70% volume day is enough to spur progress on my heavy triples and maybe de training is occuring?. my goal is to get better at moving heavy weights, i want that neural skill you talk about. right now i can 5x5 about 95% of my 5RM, which means im good at volume but suck at heavy weights, and since im a powerlifter, thats kind of a problem.

[michael]

right now i can 5x5 about 95% of my 5RM

This worked for me. Percentages are of 5RM.
Progress is measured by the intensity set.
All the other sets are adjusted to drive the intensity 1x5 set.

HLM:
Heavy: 1x5 @5RM PR, 4x5 @95%
Light: 2x5 @90%
Medium: 3x5 @95%

[DirtyRed]

Exactly what you do for volume isn't going to be as important in displaying that 1RM strength as semi-frequently doing some 90%+ reps. For non-ELEET lifters, that is probably going to mean at least other week do a heavy triple or a handful on heavy-but-sub-maximal singles.