New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

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Hanley
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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#21

Post by Hanley » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 pm

Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 pm Going against the grain here, but I think there is a lot of truth in what he is saying. I've been fucking around with rpe and volume for 6 months under the eye of 2 different and highly respected coaches, and I'm not any stronger in my squat or deadlift than I was a year ago. The 25 pound gains I made on my bench last year came as the result of a Hepburn inspired weekly linear progression earlier in the year.
I think most implementations of RPE and "volume" absolutely suck. For instance, I think the practice of prescribing sets across at a fixed RPE is batshit cray cray (I mean, how the fuck am I supposed to micro-adjust load between sets to accommodate for fatigue to maintain a prescribed RPE? I may as well just pull numbers from my ass)

And some folks just absolutely suck at implementing RPE.

Don't make Rippetoe's article "true".

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#22

Post by Skid » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:57 pm

Hanley wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 pm
Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 pm Going against the grain here, but I think there is a lot of truth in what he is saying. I've been fucking around with rpe and volume for 6 months under the eye of 2 different and highly respected coaches, and I'm not any stronger in my squat or deadlift than I was a year ago. The 25 pound gains I made on my bench last year came as the result of a Hepburn inspired weekly linear progression earlier in the year.
I think most implementations of RPE and "volume" absolutely suck. For instance, I think the practice of prescribing sets across at a fixed RPE is batshit cray cray (I mean, how the fuck am I supposed to micro-adjust load between sets to accommodate for fatigue to maintain a prescribed RPE? I may as well just pull numbers from my ass)

And some folks just absolutely suck at implementing RPE.

Don't make Rippetoe's article "true".
Andy helped write that as well. One of the most productive programs I've done is Andy's 5/3/1 where you are pushed to add weight every week.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#23

Post by Hanley » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:59 pm

Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:57 pmAndy helped write that as well. One of the most productive programs I've done is Andy's 5/3/1 where you are pushed to add weight every week.
Andy is Truth!

FWIW: I love weekly cycles. I actually really like Madcow.

But, the article is horseshit.
Last edited by Hanley on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#24

Post by GrizzlyAdam » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:00 pm

Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:57 pm Andy helped write that as well.
Yeah, but it's weird. Andy's programs are percentage-based after testing a 1RM.

ETA: And I could be wrong, but I don't think the advice in his programming thread was to go from failing 380x5 on LP to starting TM at 355x5x5.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#25

Post by KOTJ » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:04 pm

Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:49 pm
PapaSmurf wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:39 pm
Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 pm Going against the grain here, but I think there is a lot of truth in what he is saying. I've been fucking around with rpe and volume for 6 months under the eye of 2 different and highly respected coaches, and I'm not any stronger in my squat or deadlift than I was a year ago. The 25 pound gains I made on my bench last year came as the result of a Hepburn inspired weekly linear progression earlier in the year.
Are your last 6 months of training logs posted somewhere?
Check my log here
KOTJ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:45 pm Sounds like you should consider different coaches
I had Jordan and Avi Silverberg. Who should I consider?
Austin, Tushcerer (or some other RTS coach), one of the TSA guys, etc.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#26

Post by cwd » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:07 pm

KOTJ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:19 pm What the fuck is excess complexity? Seriously, what the fuck is it?
The Bridge, probably.
KOTJ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:19 pm What the fuck is progressing "slower than you need to"?
Here, he's probably referring to 5-3-1.
KOTJ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:19 pm Failure should be incredibly rare.
That's how I program for myself, these days. Haven't failed a rep in the last 14 months. Not coincidentally, have not injured myself either.

But on my first successful intermediate program (a HL 4-day split) I tried to set grindy 5rms on every lift, every week, with failures pretty often.
It worked for about 3 months, my progress was quick. And I owe whatever ability I have to rate RPE to this experience.

In the end it broke me, I got hurt and discouraged. A wise coach could productively run this sort of program for a new intermediate for a while, but watch for the signs and switch to something else before that point.

Telling an uncoached new intermediate to do this is not something I would in good conscience do, unless I knew they were prone to wimping out and needed "tough love".

@Hanley, your main objection seems to be something Rip et al skate past -- correct amount of volume.
There is a glaring lack of discussion in the article, about how to determine how much volume to use...

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#27

Post by Hanley » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm

KOTJ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:04 pm
Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:49 pm
PapaSmurf wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:39 pm
Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 pm Going against the grain here, but I think there is a lot of truth in what he is saying. I've been fucking around with rpe and volume for 6 months under the eye of 2 different and highly respected coaches, and I'm not any stronger in my squat or deadlift than I was a year ago. The 25 pound gains I made on my bench last year came as the result of a Hepburn inspired weekly linear progression earlier in the year.
Are your last 6 months of training logs posted somewhere?
Check my log here
KOTJ wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:45 pm Sounds like you should consider different coaches
I had Jordan and Avi Silverberg. Who should I consider?
Austin, Tushcerer (or some other RTS coach), one of the TSA guys, etc.
But...if you had tremendous success using a Hepburn template, why not use a Hepburn template? I think @Chebass88 has used them quite successfully.

I'm also gonna plug Nuckols for the 100th time on these forums. His totally free program-templates are outstanding.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#28

Post by strega » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:15 pm

You guys must be pretty damn smart. It’s beyond my skill set to discuss this article. Seemed like a bunch of double talk to confuse the reader into believing that the author is intelligent. He should follow his own advice and use “Lowest Effective Dose of Complexity in Language” to make his point.

Skid wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:37 pm Going against the grain here, but I think there is a lot of truth in what he is saying. I've been fucking around with rpe and volume for 6 months under the eye of 2 different and highly respected coaches, and I'm not any stronger in my squat or deadlift than I was a year ago. The 25 pound gains I made on my bench last year came as the result of a Hepburn inspired weekly linear progression earlier in the year.
I'm no expert but I am 58. Dude your profile states you are 54, at a certain point we are fighting against decay so I'm just guessing that a 6 months drought is not a big deal. You've put up some pretty big numbers, I'd bet that progress is just around the corner.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#29

Post by ch » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:19 pm

Did Andy really help write this, or did the article incorporate material he’s already written (from Practical Programming)?

I can’t believe Andy would write an article that directly contradicts the programs he’s released (which are based on %1RM and incorporate testing weeks).

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#30

Post by GlasgowJock » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:23 pm

strega wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:15 pmYou guys must be pretty damn smart. It’s beyond my skill set to discuss this article. Seemed like a bunch of double talk to confuse the reader into believing that the author is intelligent. He should follow his own advice and use “Lowest Effective Dose of Complexity in Language” to make his point.
Whew... thought it was just me, I struggled to read the article in it's entirety due to the prose used etc. I picked out what points I could.
ch wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:19 pmI can’t believe Andy would write an article that directly contradicts the programs he’s released (which are based on %1RM and incorporate testing weeks).
Yea I don't get this either considering his GGW and Powerbuilding programmes.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#31

Post by ch » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:34 pm

It makes a semi-coherent main point (training loads should not be based on meet performance), then goes off on wild tangents attempting to hit every point of StSt programming dogma. It provides no proof of anything except “trust me guys, I’ve been coaching for a long time.”

It rails against “complexity” without objectively or even adequately defining it. Testing 1RMs is somehow complex, but making a seemingly arbitrary jump from 375x5x3 on LP to 355x5x5 on 4dTM is not?

The most telling two words in this article are, “I suggest.”

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#32

Post by EricK » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:34 pm

cwd wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:19 amMain points:
1) avoid excess complexity, no matter how attractive it is
To my knowledge, no one outside of muscle mags promotes programming that has "excess complexity," but the fact of the matter is that the StSt notion of "adequate complexity" is sorely lacking.
2) don't progress slower than you need to, you're gonna break training eventually and you might as well be stronger when that happens
I hate to point this out, but the lifter who followed the StSt archetype for programming did worse than previously in competition. Is negative progress slower than necessary? Is an auto regulated approach that allows an attentive lifter to add 10 lbs more to a lift on a given training day progressing too slowly?
3) choose weights based on previous session/mesocycle, not from infrequent 1RM tests (and e1RM charts are silly)
There's a lot to unpack here.

What if you can't use a weight that is more than your previous cycle? Should you waste the training session trying and failing? Is a <5% reduction in load really "junk volume?"

1RM charts are effective guides. Saying they are silly is just as naive as saying they are gospel. They can also be individualized for better accuracy.
4) emphasize heavy weights for 5/3/2s and singles, not "junk volume" below 70% unless you are a bodybuilder
Is there a difference between "emphasize" and "use exclusively?" And what about more volume at ~70% (which, in the article conveniently becomes 50%)?
5) learn to grind the hard reps, you should hit failure sometimes and learn from it
Really? In training? How many failures should I plan for in my upcoming cycle? This makes it sound like one just isn't working hard enough unless they're flirting with injury. It's like the authors don't have any idea how peaking works (which is odd, because this seems to go against what Andy suggests for annual periodization...).
A 4-day split is presented as a good example for new intermediates, but not fully fleshed out except for squats:
Mo: bench/press, chest/shoulder assistance, lats, arms
Tu: squat 5x5 a bit lighter than end of SSNLP, pull
Th: bench/press chest/shoulder assistance, lats, arms
Fr: squat 1x5 heavy, pull

This all seems reasonable to me.
As Allen said, it's 4-day TM, and it's really not a good layout for anyone. Even though the article says the dosage magically aligns itself with the week to match the lifter's recovery cycle, so that we should compare a week of TM against a day of NLP, the reality is that the body doesn't work that way...
It's advice that I would give to myself circa 2011 as I was ending my first attempt at SSNLP.
Certainly my current 3-week rep-rotation split with overwarmups and RPE is way more complicated and slow than what would have been ideal for me then.
All workable progressions are likely to be slower than NLP, but that doesn't mean they are slower than they need to be.
My main quibble:

Rip et al are worried about the error of "wimping out" rather than the error of "driving yourself into the ground".
They see people who pay for coaching, by definition. Perhaps this population is particularly in need of tough love. And of course, they have a coach on hand to pick the weight increases for them.

I suspect a lot of uncoached people are (like me) prone to overdoing it and injuring ourselves.
We need clear rules for picking weights that are heavy enough but not too heavy, which Rip et al dismiss entirely (the whole RPE thing), in favor of the "coach's eye" which of course is not present for the uncoached.
It's not just that he has a childish view of people always wimping out, it's also that he clearly doesn't understand what intensities are both sustainable and useful for accumulating volume.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#33

Post by Chebass88 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:37 pm

ch wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:19 pm Did Andy really help write this, or did the article incorporate material he’s already written (from Practical Programming)?

I can’t believe Andy would write an article that directly contradicts the programs he’s released (which are based on %1RM and incorporate testing weeks).
Was this an attempt of:

"Lookit, Andy's still a part of the organization, despite being booted from being the Programming Guru. What better to demonstrate this than to include an article he "wrote" on the website?"

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#34

Post by Skid » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:42 pm

Chebass88 wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:37 pm
ch wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:19 pm Did Andy really help write this, or did the article incorporate material he’s already written (from Practical Programming)?

I can’t believe Andy would write an article that directly contradicts the programs he’s released (which are based on %1RM and incorporate testing weeks).
Was this an attempt of:

"Lookit, Andy's still a part of the organization, despite being booted from being the Programming Guru. What better to demonstrate this than to include an article he "wrote" on the website?"
Not sure if you've been back to SS but Andy has been quite active on the forums there.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#35

Post by perman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:50 pm

Hanley wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 pm For instance, I think the practice of prescribing sets across at a fixed RPE is batshit cray cray (I mean, how the fuck am I supposed to micro-adjust load between sets to accommodate for fatigue to maintain a prescribed RPE? I may as well just pull numbers from my ass)
I don't think keeping RPE constant is a goal of those protocols you mentioned, but there are some unstated assumptions.

For instance, sets across @8 in reality means "do repeats of some initial weight @8-8.5 until @9-9.5 where you reduce the weight". Meaning you would usually only lower the weight once, or maybe twice if you're doing a lot of sets. In practice, this just means finding the right weight, doing sets there, and adjusting if necessary.

Those unstated assumptions are my interpretations of reading Tuscherer's various articles, which I interpret as having inspired others like Jordan who probably have read the same stuff, but haven't included it in their own stuff explicitly.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#36

Post by michael » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:04 pm

The Stress-Recovery-Adaptation cycle is always based on one workout.

As you advance, the adaptation from one workout is no longer sufficient to create new PRs, so you must accumulate longer and longer chains of adaptations to do so.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#37

Post by mgil » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:13 pm

The article is weak.

Andy’s actual programs contradict what’s written in that article so I’m doubtful of the level of his contributions.

People who don’t capitalize their name (when being stated as an author of a document, not a bullshit internet handle) out of protest to convention come off as pretentious.

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#38

Post by Hanley » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:41 pm

cwd wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:07 pm@Hanley, your main objection seems to be something Rip et al skate past -- correct amount of volume.
There is a glaring lack of discussion in the article, about how to determine how much volume to use...
Sorta.

I can't really tease out much of a point other than "your training should be as simple as possible given your "training age"".

But, really, what is "simple" and what is this dreaded complexity?

Is the Texas Method simple? How do I determine the load on my first 5rm? Should it be the load I used for my last successful LP 3x5? Why? What's the offset for Volume Day? Why? Where'd those prescribed numbers come from?

These decisions are not "based on my training"...these decisions are prescribed and arbitrary and come from the Aasgard ether. I suppose "experience" is used to justify the method.

I can't find any evidence to support the claims in the argument. And I don't see any rigorous analysis or logic.

I just see the textbook logical fallacies that I've already pointed out. I see a half-assed attempt to strengthen the argument via a ridiculous juxtaposition of "Our Way" vs "Their Way".

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#39

Post by ch » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:00 pm

Hanley wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:41 pm
I can't really tease out much of a point other than "your training should be as simple as possible given your "training age"".

But, really, what is "simple" and what is this dreaded complexity?

Is the Texas Method simple? How do I determine the load on my first 5rm? Should it be the load I used for my last successful LP 3x5? Why? What's the offset for Volume Day? Why? Where'd those prescribed numbers come from?

These decisions are not "based on my training"...these decisions are prescribed and arbitrary and come from the Aasgard ether. I suppose "experience" is used to justify the method.

I can't find any evidence to support the claims in the argument. And I don't see any rigorous analysis or logic.

I just see the textbook logical fallacies that I've already pointed out. I see a half-assed attempt to strengthen the argument via a ridiculous juxtaposition of "Our Way" vs "Their Way".
This is exactly the point I was making in my previous comment. “Complexity” is used arbitrarily. In the past, he’s used that term for “complexity in exercise selection,” but it’s used as a broad, ambiguous catch-all in this article. How is testing 1RMs “complex”?

As usual, there are a few nuggets of good advice surrounded by a lot of hand waving and appeals to common sense. (Is that a real logical fallacy? It should be.)

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Re: New Rippetoe/Baker/Bradford article on intermediate programming

#40

Post by Hanley » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:10 pm

ch wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:00 pmThis is exactly the point I was making in my previous comment.
I haven't kept up with this thread. I only now went back and read your comment. Yeah, we had really similar reading experiences.
ch wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:00 pmappeals to common sense. (Is that a real logical fallacy? It should be.)
The default arbiter of truth -- the internet -- says yes! https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... mmon-Sense

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