NFL Combine - Strength & Power Measurements

[bobmen10000]

If you had could add or change one combine event to more accurately measure athletic (speed, power, strength) prowess, which would you choose?

A recent ESPN article mentioned the bench press being the least important measurement from the combine, one of the facebook comments mentioned it is more a test of muscular endurance than strength anyway and for linemen a 1 rep max would be a better test. Agree?

[mbasic]

If you had could add or change one combine event to more accurately measure athletic (speed, power, strength) prowess, which would you choose?

A recent ESPN article mentioned the bench press being the least important measurement from the combine, one of the facebook comments mentioned it is more a test of muscular endurance than strength anyway and for linemen a 1 rep max would be a better test. Agree?

Yeah, the bench is stupid.
The guy who had 51 reps, barely could make a practice squad for a year, and then disappeared from the league after that.

I don't care if you can throw a foot 90 yards either.

They should run the 40 in pads and a helmet.
Use actually electronic timing (you know I think those actually still hand timed? LMFAO)
... and give us the 10 yd split.

I think shuttle cone drill for lineman is a useful metric actually.
They seem to pass block more than ever now.
Moving their feet seem to be more important than sheer upper body strength.

The whole thing is stupid really

[ape288]

They should run the 40 in pads and a helmet.
Use actually electronic timing (you know I think those actually still hand timed? LMFAO)
... and give us the 10 yd split.

I think shuttle cone drill for lineman is a useful metric actually.
They seem to pass block more than ever now.
Moving their feet seem to be more important than sheer upper body strength.

The NFL Combine uses partially automated timing (started by hand, stopped by lasers). They experimented with fully automated timing one year but did not release those results because the times were substantially slower (probably on the order of 0.1-0.2 seconds). Personally, I don't see an issue with how they do the timing. They use video technology to confirm everything anyway, and who cares if the times are slightly "inflated?" Its like always using a scale that you know weighs you 5lbs heavy. If it's consistently wrong in the exact same fashion, does it really matter? Just don't try to compare the times to track and field times like the lay public. Shit is apples to oranges anyway, even if the combine used FAT.

There are 3 different shuttles that they run. Theyre all very valuable for pretty much every position, imo, except QB because all bets are off there. The vertical/broad jump can be helpful as well, except it can also lead to the misguided thinking of "oh, player X makes things happen on the field but his vertical jump is only average so he's only an average athlete, whereas player Y has never done anything substantial on the field but his 40" vertical makes him a freak athlete and we can turn any freak athlete into a football player. Let's go with player Y." That sort of thinking has blown up in people's faces on more than one occasion, and also caused great football players to go unnoticed for much longer than they should have.

The combine is fun though. I used to do all the shuttles and the 40 yard dash every year and compare myself to the top performers of the incoming class to see where I ranked.

[DirtyRed]

The bench press test is absolutely useless. The first full HALF of any given player's number was obtained by bouncing the bar off the ribcage, 3/4 of the way to lock out, and repeating that until they're out of breath and have to actually lock it out to take a breath. A bench 1RM, properly judged, would also be largely useless, because the bench press is a glorified assistance lift and doesn't have a shitton of direct carryover to anything where you can't pin your back against a flat surface.

A squat 1RM test would be really useful, especially for front seven players, offensive linemen, and RBs, but most of these idiots would either squat a foot high, hurt themselves, or hurt themselves squatting a foot high.

They should just have them push a sled with X amount of weight 20 yards or something and time that. Maybe modify the weight based on what position a player is, higher for linemen, lower for RBs. It'll show their ability to use whatever strength they have, however dumbly they obtained it, to push things around. Which, to paraphrase Gene Hackman, is all football really is, pushing things around.

[mgil]

OHP and/or push press 1RM may be a better upper body metric.

On SS there was the 225 for reps thread. A bunch of us got respectable numbers. Obviously it’s stupid.

[bobmen10000]

The bench press test is absolutely useless. The first full HALF of any given player's number was obtained by bouncing the bar off the ribcage, 3/4 of the way to lock out, and repeating that until they're out of breath and have to actually lock it out to take a breath. A bench 1RM, properly judged, would also be largely useless, because the bench press is a glorified assistance lift and doesn't have a shitton of direct carryover to anything where you can't pin your back against a flat surface.

A squat 1RM test would be really useful, especially for front seven players, offensive linemen, and RBs, but most of these idiots would either squat a foot high, hurt themselves, or hurt themselves squatting a foot high.

They should just have them push a sled with X amount of weight 20 yards or something and time that. Maybe modify the weight based on what position a player is, higher for linemen, lower for RBs. It'll show their ability to use whatever strength they have, however dumbly they obtained it, to push things around. Which, to paraphrase Gene Hackman, is all football really is, pushing things around.

Sled push is probably the best method for lineman and RBs - 2x doubleweight (just because) at 20 yards. Have the metric simply be James Harrison. Or keep the bench press and have them use a tsunami bar because it is awesome to behold.

[ape288]

but most of these idiots

however dumbly they obtained it, to push things around.

I see you have an immense amount of respect for their intelligence lol.

People love shitting on the weight room antics of elite football players, but man, your average guy would be lucky as sin to be able to put half that much effort or intensity into ANY endeavor. They might not be the brightest guys in the world as a whole, but they know how to fucking work and you've got to respect that.

[cgeorg]

The bench press test is absolutely useless. The first full HALF of any given player's number was obtained by bouncing the bar off the ribcage, 3/4 of the way to lock out, and repeating that until they're out of breath and have to actually lock it out to take a breath. A bench 1RM, properly judged, would also be largely useless, because the bench press is a glorified assistance lift and doesn't have a shitton of direct carryover to anything where you can't pin your back against a flat surface.

A squat 1RM test would be really useful, especially for front seven players, offensive linemen, and RBs, but most of these idiots would either squat a foot high, hurt themselves, or hurt themselves squatting a foot high.

They should just have them push a sled with X amount of weight 20 yards or something and time that. Maybe modify the weight based on what position a player is, higher for linemen, lower for RBs. It'll show their ability to use whatever strength they have, however dumbly they obtained it, to push things around. Which, to paraphrase Gene Hackman, is all football really is, pushing things around.

We get it, you have a shitty bench press. Why would squat be any more valid than bench when most of the time you're either running or pushing a person?

Anyways yeah, sled push.

[DirtyRed]

The bench press test is absolutely useless. The first full HALF of any given player's number was obtained by bouncing the bar off the ribcage, 3/4 of the way to lock out, and repeating that until they're out of breath and have to actually lock it out to take a breath. A bench 1RM, properly judged, would also be largely useless, because the bench press is a glorified assistance lift and doesn't have a shitton of direct carryover to anything where you can't pin your back against a flat surface.

A squat 1RM test would be really useful, especially for front seven players, offensive linemen, and RBs, but most of these idiots would either squat a foot high, hurt themselves, or hurt themselves squatting a foot high.

They should just have them push a sled with X amount of weight 20 yards or something and time that. Maybe modify the weight based on what position a player is, higher for linemen, lower for RBs. It'll show their ability to use whatever strength they have, however dumbly they obtained it, to push things around. Which, to paraphrase Gene Hackman, is all football really is, pushing things around.

Sled push is probably the best method for lineman and RBs - 2x doubleweight (just because) at 20 yards. Have the metric simply be James Harrison. Or keep the bench press and have them use a tsunami bar because it is awesome to behold.

2x bodyweight might be hard for a single person to move at all. Though maybe I'm just projecting my not-NFL-playing shortcomings onto others. Straight body weight would probably be fine.

Or, just get James Harrison to stand in the middle of the field and tell people to go try to push him over. We won't learn anything useful, but it'll be fun to watch.

but most of these idiots

however dumbly they obtained it, to push things around.

I see you have an immense amount of respect for their intelligence lol.

People love shitting on the weight room antics of elite football players, but man, your average guy would be lucky as sin to be able to put half that much effort or intensity into ANY endeavor. They might not be the brightest guys in the world as a whole, but they know how to fucking work and you've got to respect that.

The only things I've GOT to do are stay white and die. Effort is great and all, but I see dozens of witless idiots over the course of a given week give a whole bunch of really, really stupid effort and get nowhere, and seeing football dipshits do the same thing only encourages them. Their training regimens are programs designed by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying preexisting genetic talent. And now, my favorite gif of all time:

We get it, you have a shitty bench press. Why would squat be any more valid than bench when most of the time you're either running or pushing a person?

You've never actually played a sport, have you? When you're standing on the ground, you push things with your legs. No exceptions.

This isn't to say football players shouldn't bench, just that their max bench is about as relevant as their max bicep curl or their GPA.

[cgeorg]

We get it, you have a shitty bench press. Why would squat be any more valid than bench when most of the time you're either running or pushing a person?

You've never actually played a sport, have you? When you're standing on the ground, you push things with your legs. No exceptions.

This isn't to say football players shouldn't bench, just that their max bench is about as relevant as their max bicep curl or their GPA.

You transmit force between the points of contact, which are likely to be the ground and your hands.

[ape288]

2x bodyweight might be hard for a single person to move at all. Though maybe I'm just projecting my not-NFL-playing shortcomings onto others. Straight body weight would probably be fine.

You're projecting. 3 months of sled pushing 1-2x a week and I pushed 1000lbs, not including the weight of the sled because I have no idea how much it weighed, for 15 yards. That's...6.5x body weight lol. I had never pushed a sled before in my life, but last year I trained at a gym that had one and it was the first time I had ever had access to one. Great fucking exercise! Definitely give it a whirl if you ever get the opportunity.

This isn't to say football players shouldn't bench, just that their max bench is about as relevant as their max bicep curl or their GPA.

Not sure I would go so far as to compare it to their GPA, obviously there's some value in getting a gauge of their general upper body strength. The "pushing people around" idea is a combination of lower body strength/power and upper body strength, both rely on and feed off of each other, but it's certainly not all leg. The push press would be more useful information to have, in my opinion.

[JonA]

The individual 'events' in a combine aren't really all that important. Mostly it's just a stupid media event. But hidden under all the crap, it's really just an aptitude test for the ability to train towards an arbitrary target assigned by a coach.

Would you want to pay $$$ for an athlete who knew he needed to bench 225x20, but didn't put the effort into training for it? Likewise, if an athlete is willing to train hard enough to get a 225x30 bench, do you think training his squat to comparable numbers is going to be a problem? (Or even is a problem?)

[bobmen10000]

The individual 'events' in a combine aren't really all that important. Mostly it's just a stupid media event. But hidden under all the crap, it's really just an aptitude test for the ability to train towards an arbitrary target assigned by a coach.

Would you want to pay $$$ for an athlete who knew he needed to bench 225x20, but didn't put the effort into training for it? Likewise, if an athlete is willing to train hard enough to get a 225x30 bench, do you think training his squat to comparable numbers is going to be a problem? (Or even is a problem?)

This is probably my own bias and inability to get to depth but: cheating on the squats would be much more obvious than the rapid fire half pressing done on the bench, so I think you could cheat a lot more doing 1/4 squats . I do think the combine is a largely an aptitude test to see if the player can follow basic instructions and not piss hot. Even the Wonderlic test is only notable if you score in single digits and that is easily forgiven if the player is physically gifted enough and/or able to demonstrate football IQ in understanding position specific routes and schemes.

[DirtyRed]

We get it, you have a shitty bench press. Why would squat be any more valid than bench when most of the time you're either running or pushing a person?

You've never actually played a sport, have you? When you're standing on the ground, you push things with your legs. No exceptions.

This isn't to say football players shouldn't bench, just that their max bench is about as relevant as their max bicep curl or their GPA.

You transmit force between the points of contact, which are likely to be the ground and your hands.

It's REALLY more likely to be your chest pads, shoulder pads, and helmet. Or chest, shoulders, and face if you play real sports.

2x bodyweight might be hard for a single person to move at all. Though maybe I'm just projecting my not-NFL-playing shortcomings onto others. Straight body weight would probably be fine.

You're projecting. 3 months of sled pushing 1-2x a week and I pushed 1000lbs, not including the weight of the sled because I have no idea how much it weighed, for 15 yards. That's...6.5x body weight lol. I had never pushed a sled before in my life, but last year I trained at a gym that had one and it was the first time I had ever had access to one. Great fucking exercise! Definitely give it a whirl if you ever get the opportunity.

It might depend on the sled and its shape and fancy skis. My experience with sleds is primarily in dealing with this sort of monstrosity. The whole thing probably weigh 300 lbs minimum, and it's usually a pain in the ass for one person to get it to do more than budge if it's on real grass.

This isn't to say football players shouldn't bench, just that their max bench is about as relevant as their max bicep curl or their GPA.

Not sure I would go so far as to compare it to their GPA, obviously there's some value in getting a gauge of their general upper body strength. The "pushing people around" idea is a combination of lower body strength/power and upper body strength, both rely on and feed off of each other, but it's certainly not all leg. The push press would be more useful information to have, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Of course upper body strength is handy. But squat strength is indisputably, and by a WIDE margin, more important. Anyone attempting to disagree is a squatlet GDE who never played a tackle sport (QB doesn't count). So while we're measuring stuff, why not measure the vastly more relevant stuff.