The Intermediate Conundrum

[Skid]

@FredM

Hey Fred,

Wish you all the best and that you meet all your training goals. I tried to look for your log but didn't see it. I didn't mean to piss people off, but just note what I've seen. Of course it doesn't apply to everyone and I thought I made that somewhat clear.

For the record I have never done StStLP and only did a modified TM for a couple months before I went to better programming for me.

[Sloop]

The intermediate conundrum exists cause this is where progress slows down and people start getting frustrated endlessly hopping programs in search of one that will be 'optimum" which usually leads to little results or nowhere. You have to ride out some different types of programming templates to see how you respond and then learn to program for yourself from there. There is no magic programming unless your on drugs.

[MattimusMaximus]

You've simply hit a plateau and, no matter what you do, your progress henceforth will be at the pace of a snail

I put something like 30 pounds on my lifetime e1rm bench press in one month this past Spring.

No drugs, 40 years old, well past "intermediate".

Sometimes shit works out.

You magnificent bastard!

Yeah, good point. If you start at 15-20% and end up over 25%, you've kinda fucked yourself and will have to do some damage control.

Why you gotta call me out like that brah? Lol

[Monoides]

The intermediate conundrum exists cause this is where progress slows down and people start getting frustrated endlessly hopping programs in search of one that will be 'optimum" which usually leads to little results or nowhere. You have to ride out some different types of programming templates to see how you respond and then learn to program for yourself from there. There is no magic programming unless your on drugs.

Even steroids aren't magic. They're enhancement. There has to BE something there to enhance. I have, no joke, seen guys who're juicing make progress just as bad as a non-juicing me was making on the Texas Method (they got more jacked, but the weights they were doing didn't go up beyond like 10% in a 12 month period, and they were very frustrated about it).

I think if you respond poorly to a given type of programming, you're probably going to respond badly to it if you're on dat dere celltech as well. Maybe not AS bad, but still bad. Although I guess the other possibility is the bathtub hormones these guys were taking weren't nearly as high a dose as they were saying they were.

(And yeah, I know, sterons cause muscle growth even in non training individuals. There definitely was growth, but it didn't seem to translate at all well to actual weight on the bar.)

Yeah, good point. If you start at 15-20% and end up over 25%, you've kinda fucked yourself and will have to do some damage control.

What if you started out at 25% but are still 25% but have convinced yourself you're actually now more like 17% maybe 16.4% on a good day, and it's just a matter of maybe cutting a little bit at some point in the future but you wanna get your bench up to 275 and your squat up to 450 first but your bench has been stuck at 260 for like the past ten months and every time you squat heavy you hear the voice of God telling you you look like you need a deload bro but fuck him what does he know and that means you probably need to eat more but eating more means more fat but it's okay because it also means more muscle and like you're training hard and you're doing the work so it'll be fine right and anyway the more muscle you have the easier it is to burn fat right so by the time you get up to that 275 you'll just shed fat like you're an innuit storing whale blubber for the winter and besides it's not as though you're not perfectly healthy anyway I mean sure your conditioning could do with a bit of work and you did get winded running for that train the other day well okay not so much running as jogging okay not so much jogging as walking kinda fast but you can't be out of shape that's ridiculous you spend your entire fucking life in the gym as it is it's not like you can add ANOTHER session and anyway that'd compromise recovery and if you do that you'll never get that bench up to 275 and besides it's FINE it's not like anyone ever sees you with your shirt off anyway except your wife and she's worried that you're always complaining about being injured and not so subtly suggesting that it's probably a bad idea to be carrying that extra weight around I mean none of us are getting any younger right but god DAMMIT you're not gonna set yourself back another six months and let that sweet sweet 275 evade your grasp yet again?

[Sloop]

The intermediate conundrum exists cause this is where progress slows down and people start getting frustrated endlessly hopping programs in search of one that will be 'optimum" which usually leads to little results or nowhere. You have to ride out some different types of programming templates to see how you respond and then learn to program for yourself from there. There is no magic programming unless your on drugs.

Even steroids aren't magic. They're enhancement. There has to BE something there to enhance. I have, no joke, seen guys who're juicing make progress just as bad as a non-juicing me was making on the Texas Method (they got more jacked, but the weights they were doing didn't go up beyond like 10% in a 12 month period, and they were very frustrated about it).

I think if you respond poorly to a given type of programming, you're probably going to respond badly to it if you're on dat dere celltech as well. Maybe not AS bad, but still bad. Although I guess the other possibility is the bathtub hormones these guys were taking weren't nearly as high a dose as they were saying they were.

(And yeah, I know, sterons cause muscle growth even in non training individuals. There definitely was growth, but it didn't seem to translate at all well to actual weight on the bar.)


I agree to an extent, but I have hands on expirience with a relative that was a "user". He used the most random training (would literally just lift with whoever he latched onto that day at the gym) with no progression mode whatsoever. In a 2 year span he worked up to a 600 DL and near 500 Becnh. BW 250ish.It was mostly grip and rip form but he did it. Once he got off the sauce, his lifts plummeted. He still does the same random training. Recently he struggled to rep out 225 belted on squats and couldn't lockout a 165lb OHP. He's about 30lbs lighter but still a night and day performance difference.

[AustinD]

Sloop,

Yep, PEDs can make a helluva difference. I’ve never used them myself, but I’ve seen the effects firsthand as well of course, it depends on what’s being taken and how much. A buddy of mine has started taking high dose TRT 2 months ago, and he’s made very little progress because he misses gym sessions all the time. I’m fact, he’s only lifted twice in the past month.

TRT alone isn’t gonna be magical in its effects in the context of strength and muscle growth. Takes some next level anabolics to get that otherworldly effect.

[eternalmediate]

What if you started out at 25% but are still 25% but have convinced yourself you're actually now more like 17% maybe 16.4% on a good day, and it's just a matter of maybe cutting a little bit at some point in the future but you wanna get your bench up to 275 and your squat up to 450 first but your bench has been stuck at 260 for like the past ten months and every time you squat heavy you hear the voice of God telling you you look like you need a deload bro but fuck him what does he know and that means you probably need to eat more but eating more means more fat but it's okay because it also means more muscle and like you're training hard and you're doing the work so it'll be fine right and anyway the more muscle you have the easier it is to burn fat right so by the time you get up to that 275 you'll just shed fat like you're an innuit storing whale blubber for the winter and besides it's not as though you're not perfectly healthy anyway I mean sure your conditioning could do with a bit of work and you did get winded running for that train the other day well okay not so much running as jogging okay not so much jogging as walking kinda fast but you can't be out of shape that's ridiculous you spend your entire fucking life in the gym as it is it's not like you can add ANOTHER session and anyway that'd compromise recovery and if you do that you'll never get that bench up to 275 and besides it's FINE it's not like anyone ever sees you with your shirt off anyway except your wife and she's worried that you're always complaining about being injured and not so subtly suggesting that it's probably a bad idea to be carrying that extra weight around I mean none of us are getting any younger right but god DAMMIT you're not gonna set yourself back another six months and let that sweet sweet 275 evade your grasp yet again?

Get out of my head, wizard.

[Sloop]

Sloop,

Yep, PEDs can make a helluva difference. I’ve never used them myself, but I’ve seen the effects firsthand as well of course, it depends on what’s being taken and how much. A buddy of mine has started taking high dose TRT 2 months ago, and he’s made very little progress because he misses gym sessions all the time. I’m fact, he’s only lifted twice in the past month.

TRT alone isn’t gonna be magical in its effects in the context of strength and muscle growth. Takes some next level anabolics to get that otherworldly effect.

I haven't used either. The guy I was using as my reference was using DECCA and TREN (found his stash) and possibly much more. So yeah, moderate TRT dosage won't compare here.

[FredM]

What if you started out at 25% but are still 25% but have convinced yourself you're actually now more like 17% maybe 16.4% on a good day, and it's just a matter of maybe cutting a little bit at some point in the future but you wanna get your bench up to 275 and your squat up to 450 first but your bench has been stuck at 260 for like the past ten months and every time you squat heavy you hear the voice of God telling you you look like you need a deload bro but fuck him what does he know and that means you probably need to eat more but eating more means more fat but it's okay because it also means more muscle and like you're training hard and you're doing the work so it'll be fine right and anyway the more muscle you have the easier it is to burn fat right so by the time you get up to that 275 you'll just shed fat like you're an innuit storing whale blubber for the winter and besides it's not as though you're not perfectly healthy anyway I mean sure your conditioning could do with a bit of work and you did get winded running for that train the other day well okay not so much running as jogging okay not so much jogging as walking kinda fast but you can't be out of shape that's ridiculous you spend your entire fucking life in the gym as it is it's not like you can add ANOTHER session and anyway that'd compromise recovery and if you do that you'll never get that bench up to 275 and besides it's FINE it's not like anyone ever sees you with your shirt off anyway except your wife and she's worried that you're always complaining about being injured and not so subtly suggesting that it's probably a bad idea to be carrying that extra weight around I mean none of us are getting any younger right but god DAMMIT you're not gonna set yourself back another six months and let that sweet sweet 275 evade your grasp yet again?

Get out of my head, wizard.

Yeah. Holy shit that was epic.