Experiments with Deadlift Volume

[Chebass88]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

Seems excessive =/= is excessive.

[Hanley]

This was enough to overtrain my deadlift. I don’t know for sure that I can blame it solely on the singles, but these days I like to keep the volume more controlled at those intensities.

What was weekly squat volume looking like? We're working with ZERO squat volume, which profoundly changes any "max recoverable volume" for pulls.

edit: but - also- max recoverable volume will vary tremendously between lifters. You need to have a process for determining YOUR max recoverable volume (given the intersession recovery period).

[Chebass88]

Well, one part Chebass88 and I need to figure out is how to dial-in out near-max volume for the SGDL and Heavy Pull sessions.

Something like a heavy single (with fixed load) pulled at the start of the "Heavy Session" over several weeks should help (so...maybe a single at 505-515 or something). Then we could review bar speed as a crude measure of gains/fatigue and adjust. It'd be trickier to evaluate this using the differing intensities and movements I proposed in the low-fatigue thread.

And getting loads dialed-in will be a little tricky...but video will help immensely there.

Basically, I'd expect volume to be a little higher than I proposed.

Pulling a test rep at fixed load is definitely feasible. I don’t have a direct bar speed measurement device - would it be helpful to make a “speed indicator” - basically a yardstick with markings to time start & stop locations?

In order to nail down the volume, I can also dial back intensity with rowing - e.g., keeping it fixed at a moderate pace, for example. The force required for a long row is minimal relative to a deadlift, but I could see how it could be a contributing factor. Maybe something around 2:03 pace - enough to get some blood moving, but not enough to impact recovery.

[Hanley]

Pulling a test rep at fixed load is definitely feasible. I don’t have a direct bar speed measurement device - would it be helpful to make a “speed indicator” - basically a yardstick with markings to time start & stop locations?

I think eyeballing will be good enough. If we wanted to get fussy we could count frames in the video.

In order to nail down the volume, I can also dial back intensity with rowing - e.g., keeping it fixed at a moderate pace, for example. The force required for a long row is minimal relative to a deadlift, but I could see how it could be a contributing factor. Maybe something around 2:03 pace - enough to get some blood moving, but not enough to impact recovery.

No, I think it's better to dial in stress-dose within the context of "current baseline stress".

[augeleven]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

Seems excessive =/= is excessive.

Aren't those recommendations in the context of a program where one is also doing a lot of low-bar squatting, often before Deadlift?

[Ragholmes]

I don’t have a direct bar speed measurement device - would it be helpful to make a “speed indicator” - basically a yardstick with markings to time start & stop locations?

I think eyeballing will be good enough. If we wanted to get fussy we could count frames in the video.

I use an app called Iron Path. You pick a spot such as the end of the bar and it will trace a line to show your bar path. The upgraded version (I cant remember the price but it wasn't much, maybe a couple dollars) produces a lot more information with graphs that I don't truly understand, one of them is velocity and another for acceleration. I don't really use them and can't attest to their accuracy. But that may be a very cheap way for you to track your bar speed without having to fork out big bucks for a device.

[mettkeks]

I don't know, but 8-12 singles @82-90% seem excessive.

SpoilerShow

The above plans are linear from week to week. With the first option, you may add some back down (fatigue drop) singles in the latter weeks to accommodate for the reduction in volume but it’s not always necessary. The second two examples place the heaviest deadlifts earlier in the week. That can be switched to meet your schedule and/or create a different undulation. Our long-term planning is more undulating in nature with the majority of our training occurring in the 80-89% range. There are enormous benefits to hovering around that intensity. It’s light enough where one can perform lots of volume to acquire skill without overtraining or needing a deload. On the other hand, it’s heavy enough to elicit a significant strength response and keep lifters close to top form. When 80-89% is your home base, you’re never very far from bringing your strength to a peak. You can create your own training plan using SSPT’s Deadlift Table. The options are infinite.

We train like we compete so most training sessions begin with squats and we always squat before deadlifting. The squat serves as a warm-up for the deadlift and prepares us for the rigors of game day. When using the once/week option above, the deadlifts are performed after a high-volume, medium-intensity squat. Later in the week, we’ll squat heavy immediately followed by a special deadlift assistance exercise based on our individual weaknesses. You’ll rarely see anyone at SSPT deadlifting with the opposite grip or stance. Our specific deadlift assistance exercises closely resemble the competition style deadlift and are most often trained in the one to three rep range but sometimes as high as four or five. We may select from deficit, halting (pause), rack/block (partials), Romanian deadlifts, or even add chains. These assistance deadlift moves are typically implemented via Rates of Perceived Exertion (RPE) or percentages (of our DL max) for three to four consecutive weeks over the course of a single training block. After using a special exercise for one block, we’ll switch it for another. Training sessions are occasionally finished with a non-specific (supplemental) posterior chain movement but always with some direct (weighted) abdominal work.

Why does it seem excessive?

What are say 10 singles at 90% supposed to do? Whatever it is, I don't think it's worth the fatigue generated. I Bet after the 5th or so It turns into shitty grinds for most people. In the spirit of Hamburgerfans post, that may take a while to recover from. I needed a long break from 80%+ loads afterwards.

Not trying to pull a steven here, I'm just voicing my concern. I'm certainly interested in how this project works out.

[CtMcBride]

What are say 10 singles at 90% supposed to do? Whatever it is, I don't think it's worth the fatigue generated. I Bet after the 5th or so It turns into shitty grinds for most people. In the spirit of Hamburgerfans post, that may take a while to recover from. I needed a long break from 80%+ loads afterwards.

Not trying to pull a steven here, I'm just voicing my concern. I'm certainly interested in how this project works out.

I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Hanley’s suggesting all the singles be at the top end of the range.

And people definitely respond to that kind of stress differently. Some of the best deadlift progress I’ve made has come with one of my sessions every week being 1@8, 5@8 x2. That’s 11 reps at ~81+%, and breaking the lower intensity work into singles reduces the stress further. I had no trouble recovering from that while also squatting or leg pressing 3x per week.

Im planning on starting this next week at the lower end of the range, doing 1@7, 1@8, 1@85% x6, for 8 total singles. Snatch Grips on the second day for the volume work. Rounding out the sessiom stress with front squats.

[Hanley]

What are say 10 singles at 90% supposed to do?

How 'bout 20,000 singles at 80%?

Let's ground this with some probable rep ranges using the always-handy fatigue metric:

80%:
400 (low end) = 16
600 (high end) = 24

82%
400 (low end) = 12
600 (high end) = 18

87%
400 (low end) = 6
600 (high end) = 9

90%
400 (low end) = 4-5
600 (high end) = 6-7

[CtMcBride]

How 'bout 20,000 singles at 80%?

What kind of rest times are we talking here? Is this a 1x per week program with no other lifts? I could be convinced.

[Hanley]

How 'bout 20,000 singles at 80%?

What kind of rest times are we talking here? Is this a 1x per week program with no other lifts? I could be convinced.

Wait. I'm forgetting that we measure tonnage not per unit time, but per OVERLOAD EVENT. So...advanced lifters should be good with 2 sets of 5 every 6 months or so.

[EricK]

@Hanley, can you just email me a 600 deadlift already?

[Hanley]

Hanley, can you just email me a 600 deadlift already?

Shit sorry, bro. Here's a little vintage 600 deadlift for you.

[EricK]

Hanley, can you just email me a 600 deadlift already?

Shit sorry, bro. Here's a little vintage 600 deadlift for you.

Much better.

[JaJL]

How are you planning on progressing with this set up?

I've been in a bit of a "funk" and am seriously thinking of trying one of these "high volume, low fatigue" type programs.
Right now, based on what I read in this thread/the other one (which someone correct me if I misread it...) I have it typed out as:

Week 1:
-DL Workout 1: High stress SGDL or Deficit DL
-DL Workout 2: Low Stress primary DL
Week 2:
-DL Workout 1: Moderate Stress SGDL/Deficit
-DL WO 2: Mod stress primary
Week 3:
-DL WO1: low stress SGDL/Defict
-DL WO1: High Stress DL

I was thinking of running that and adding 10 lbs to e1rm I am calculating the percentages off of for the primary DL after running through the 3 weeks.

[Hanley]

How are you planning on progressing with this set up?

I think you got the basic layout of the 3-week cycle right. Session volume will depend on your work capacity of course.

A really simple way to check progression (to "validate" the forthcoming 10# 1RM increase) is simply take a few singles at @~90-93% or 3-4RM load / on the "high stress DL" day in week 3.

[Chebass88]

Why does it seem excessive?

What are say 10 singles at 90% supposed to do? Whatever it is, I don't think it's worth the fatigue generated. I Bet after the 5th or so It turns into shitty grinds for most people. In the spirit of Hamburgerfans post, that may take a while to recover from. I needed a long break from 80%+ loads afterwards.

Not trying to pull a steven here, I'm just voicing my concern. I'm certainly interested in how this project works out.

I took my deadlift from 515 to ~575 using a program that used 10 singles at 90% as one week’s session, that also included pulling rep maxes and backoff work every other week (Stevie P’s Iron Sport Strength Method). Sure, it was fatiguing, but I was fine with it at the time. I’ve also spent a few years doing the Hepburn method of 16-24 reps (as doubles/triples) at 80%, with squats the same week, with similar loading.

What makes this experiment quite appealing is dialing in the appropriate amount to make the weight go up. Using the rough framework as an example, maybe I can add some lbs with the lower end, or maybe I can tolerate a higher volume or intensity due to training history, etc. We’ll see. In god I trust - all others bring data.

[Wilhelm]

Week 4 using my SSPT template is 10 singles at 80%, and i've been using an inflated 1rm to get my weights.
Just ran half a cycle before starting over (to fit my meet time frame) , and that was based on 469 (i just split the difference to the next jump for the truncated cycle.) so 375 for 10 singles.
Was no problem. Never has been in several of these cycles.
441 is the most i've pulled, so that is actually higher than 80%.
The full 10 week cycle i'm in now, based off of 475, will have 80% day at 1X10 with 380.

90% day is just 1X5 though.

I use the inflated 1rm because i have found i do well with those weights all through the cycle, but don't reach the expected meet day number SSPT projects.
So the 95% last day of cycle weight ends up being what i take for my 2nd at the meet, and just a small jump for a third if i make the 2nd.
SSPT expects a much bigger jump on meet day. I don't seem to work that way at my extreme max.

[GlasgowJock]

So third installment in the pipeline yet @Hanley for spitballing post-MM squat programming experiments ?

[SeanHerbison]

I'm not sure I could hack that...but I'm arthritic

Stop noceboing yourself, Hanley. I believe in you.