Knee bend in the press

[mbasic]

I tried watching the live feed.
The one at WFAC, the platform was pretty far away from the camera.
Ever hear of Zoom Function?
It sucked to watch.
Why go thru the trouble of setting of the live feed and do that?

I turned it off after about 10 presses....
...of those presses I saw , they were more 'upright' than I thought they would be.
I don't think anyone is accepting/doing the limbo-press-thing.

[fishwife]

Re: Jordan's knees in the press, I think that could be some slack coming out of the quads with the hip thrust and the shift in balance and then the quads tightening again. It might not actually be knee bend, just look like it. I'd honestly have to slow it down and go frame by frame to confirm, so I'm surprised you guys are so certain of it. And if it is knee bend, it's debatable whether it's bending in a way that assists the lifts, given when and how it would be occurring.

[Murelli]

I definitely think there is viewer bias here. IOW, you knew to look for it on all of the videos and your perspective is farther away than that of the judges, so you can "see more" in the same solid angle space. For reference, I didn't see the bar-to-chest deal mainly because I look for knee flexion. Honestly I think the judges are simply looking at the bar and plates for the most part. They only look for feet/knees around mid-rep if the bar slows.

The rest of their decisions are whatever. My main criticism/concern is that they've continued to go down this path of shitty technique on the press simply to get a few more pounds out of the stupid lift as opposed to being critical of form like they are (kinda) on squats and DL. It's fucking inconsistent.

I disagree on everything except "farther away" and "see more". I can see the bar, the chest, the knees and the feet at the same time, without having to look for anything. I did so on several of his videos on IG. But doing it in real time with a limited angle is indeed a different animal. Maybe I could still see it, maybe I couldn't.

Does it still take one judge to red light a lift? If so, the judges could arrange so that each one is looking for some thing.

Regarding lifting a few more fractions of pounds, I think it's okay, since powerlifting is not a sport. I just think the rules changed to allow for Press 3.0, despite it being or not effective in adding weight to the bar.

Re: Jordan's knees in the press, I think that could be some slack coming out of the quads with the hip thrust and the shift in balance and then the quads tightening again. It might not actually be knee bend, just look like it. I'd honestly have to slow it down and go frame by frame to confirm, so I'm surprised you guys are so certain of it. And if it is knee bend, it's debatable whether it's bending in a way that assists the lifts, given when and how it would be occurring.

Quads are supposed to be locked the hell up at the start for the hip thust to work 100%, same as the abs and glutes (we all heard of quad cramps from pressing 2.0). Yes, I'm pretty sure his knees unlock in ALL his attempts. Does it assist the lift? I said a few posts back that every knee bend assists a press, so YES. IMO it's a dubious rule and it's only there for reasons.

[fishwife]

Quads are supposed to be locked the hell up at the start for the hip thust to work 100%, same as the abs and glutes (we all heard of quad cramps from pressing 2.0). Yes, I'm pretty sure his knees unlock in ALL his attempts. Does it assist the lift? I said a few posts back that every knee bend assists a press, so YES. IMO it's a dubious rule and it's only there for reasons.

His technique certainly has more slop than it should, no disagreement.

But "knee unlocking" and "knee bend" are not necessarily the same thing, and the argument that it constitutes "knee jerking" assistance is a harder argument.

I'm not really very invested in strengthlifting judging standards. It's clear that the StSt community at one point understood perfectly well that, if you're not going to be very strict in the judging of the press, you might as well have no standards at all except that the bar has to end up overhead with straight arms because the middle ground is excessively squirrelly and therefore extremely subject to judging bias. It seems that it was then decided based on nothing but desire for it to be true that the StSt community could somehow transcend this well-established problem. Obviously, it can't.

[Manveer]

Does it still take one judge to red light a lift? If so, the judges could arrange so that each one is looking for some thing.

A single judge cannot and should not be able to disqualify a lift. All judges should evaluate all aspects of the lift against the rules.

[mgil]

Quads are supposed to be locked the hell up at the start for the hip thust to work 100%, same as the abs and glutes (we all heard of quad cramps from pressing 2.0). Yes, I'm pretty sure his knees unlock in ALL his attempts. Does it assist the lift? I said a few posts back that every knee bend assists a press, so YES. IMO it's a dubious rule and it's only there for reasons.

His technique certainly has more slop than it should, no disagreement.

But "knee unlocking" and "knee bend" are not necessarily the same thing, and the argument that it constitutes "knee jerking" assistance is a harder argument.

I'm not really very invested in strengthlifting judging standards. It's clear that the StSt community at one point understood perfectly well that, if you're not going to be very strict in the judging of the press, you might as well have no standards at all except that the bar has to end up overhead with straight arms because the middle ground is excessively squirrelly and therefore extremely subject to judging bias. It seems that it was then decided based on nothing but desire for it to be true that the StSt community could somehow transcend this well-established problem. Obviously, it can't.

They swapped one poorly judged lift for another. And all of this nonsense with chest-to-bar and limbo nonsense is nearly identical to a 4' tall Asian woman gripping with thumbs at the rings and doing a 3" ROM bench. It's using the rules, and the loopholes they induce, to make things silly.

[mgil]

Does it still take one judge to red light a lift? If so, the judges could arrange so that each one is looking for some thing.

A single judge cannot and should not be able to disqualify a lift. All judges should evaluate all aspects of the lift against the rules.

Exactly. And that's why I don't think I would hold it against the judges for lifts 2 & 3. They are about 10 feet away and have to judge the entire lift over the entire system in a lift where the barbell's displace from their feet is the greatest. That's a lot of solid angle to cover.

[LexAnderson]

When did the press become this difficult? No wonder it was removed from Olympic competition. I, myself practice the strict press with little to no hip movement and certainly not bent knees during the lift. It’s interesting to me that so many people want to allow the bending of the knees, or lowering the bar down the pecs and using a lay back to initiate the press, but call sumo cheating?

[mbasic]

the thread is TL;DR right now. Super bust at work, I apologize.
But if we are still talking about Jordan's knees . . . .
Tom C. explains the allowed knee bend, and allowed heel raise concepts here.
If knee bend occurs BEFORE upward movement of the bar (and does not contribute to the upward movement of the bar) its all ok folks.
Wate, wut?
If there are so many "nuisances" tied to the press . . .well . . . .fuck

And he poorly words this. Push press might legal with the wording he uses.

[Shane]

I believe that knee "flick", allowing the knees to unlock a little then snapping them back in concert with a bar dip and rebound absolutely helps with the press. It provides a little ballistic sumpin' sumpin' on top of the bar dip stretch reflex, and I believe if not overdone it actually facilitates the "hip whip" of 2.0. Hell I don't even do the hip thing and it still helps. To the point I find it extremely hard to keep my knees locked now if I dip the bar; my body knows what it knows.

[LexAnderson]

Soooo as long as the straightening of the knees that occurs during the lift, because they were bent st the beginning, has no impact on the bar moving upwards it’s ok? Hmmmm again how is that even possible to do?!

[Murelli]

How can someone straighten their knees out and the bar not move upwards?

[LexAnderson]

You can't.

[PatrickDB]

I have a question too minor to justify a new thread.

Based on what I can see in the IG video and the degree of wrist flexion, it looks like he's gripping the bar back in the palm of his hand. I looked at a few other of his videos to confirm and this appears to be a consistent feature of his press technique. But elsewhere, he's advocated for a "bulldog grip" where the hands are slightly internally rotated and the bar placed on the heel of the palm (https://startingstrength.com/article/gripping_matters).

Am I just imagining things, or is he not practicing what he preaches? I've always felt stronger with the bar a little back in my hand for some reason, so it interests me that he does it that way, too.

edit: Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the difference between the two grips. But if you look at his lockouts, the back of his hand is basically parallel to the floor, which seems inconsistent with the "10-15 degrees of extension" advocated in his article.

[Hamburgerfan]

I've seen the back of the hand grip advocated before. Supposedly lets you start at an angle better for overhead pressing.

[PatrickDB]

I've seen the back of the hand grip advocated before. Supposedly lets you start at an angle better for overhead pressing.

Yeah, it's always felt better to me. I have a vague notion it helps because the bar path on the press is back and up, not just up, but I can't say for sure.

It's just really strange to me that he'd write an entire article about putting the bar on the heel of the palm and then ... not do it? (If that's indeed the case. It's hard for me to tell from the video.)

[KyleSchuant]

When did the press become this difficult? No wonder it was removed from Olympic competition.

It's the same as all the nonsense in powerlifting. They're torn between their desire to see bigger numbers, and their desire not to look like fucking clowns. The bigger numbers usually win. And this is part of why these remain niche sports, too many calls where the casual viewer can't make sense of things.

[PatrickDB]

edit: Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the difference between the two grips. But if you look at his lockouts, the back of his hand is basically parallel to the floor, which seems inconsistent with the "10-15 degrees of extension" advocated in his article.

For anyone else wondering this, here's a video with a clear comparison of the two:


Based on this and the wrist angle in the IG video, I conclude Jordan is not using a "compression" or "bulldog" grip. I'm still wondering why...

[OCG]

Probably because he can put the bar on his chest if he puts the bar on that position. A greatly more efficient start position is worth a little inefficiency in the wrists.

[PatrickDB]

Probably because he can put the bar on his chest if he puts the bar on that position. A greatly more efficient start position is worth a little inefficiency in the wrists.

Thanks, this makes sense.

With bar in the palm, I can start with it touching my clavicle, but with a "compression grip" I have a weird "floating rack." So your comment explains why I feel better with the former (more vertical bar path).

Now I'm thinking I need to switch up my bench grip, since I don't think there's any advantage to having the bar in the palm there and I'm being inefficient for nothing...