Any problem with long workouts?

[iamsmu]

3 hours is a really big chunk of the day. Then again, I guess most people just dick around watching TV for 3 hours or so before dinner. But I don't even have a real job and I don't know how I find a 3 hour block like that.

What's your total gym time in a week? I'm 5-6 hours, just in 2 days. If you're lifting 3x 1.5-2hr sessions or 4x 1-1.5hr sessions it's the same total time.

I can see that. There's something to getting it all done in a block like that if you can arrange to take up that much of any give day. I'd have to be way better organized in planning out my week before I could do that . .

[Cody]

3 hours is a really big chunk of the day. Then again, I guess most people just dick around watching TV for 3 hours or so before dinner. But I don't even have a real job and I don't know how I find a 3 hour block like that.

What's your total gym time in a week? I'm 5-6 hours, just in 2 days. If you're lifting 3x 1.5-2hr sessions or 4x 1-1.5hr sessions it's the same total time.

I can see that. There's something to getting it all done in a block like that if you can arrange to take up that much of any give day. I'd have to be way better organized in planning out my week before I could do that . .

I just doing get a choice. More frequent, shorter sessions would be ideal, but my situation demands I lift only 2 days per week (and they aren't even consistently the same days...)

[ShuggyBear]

At my age long workouts take more than they give. I try to keep my sessions to one hour or less, usually 3 days a week.

[Hamburgerfan]

Not a very efficient use of your time. It's your time though, so if you're having fun it's probably not so bad.

[Murelli]

Kregna, less rest more gains. You're resting too much = your conditioning sucks. I do 3-4min on upper body lifts and 3-5 min on lower body, proportional to RPE. Some days I fuck up the rest times and/or warmups and end up with the last set having a smaller RPE than the one right before it, but that's because I'm dumb (I only screw rest time on variants usually, maybe because I'm more used to squat, press, deadlift and bench).

[Kregna]

Kregna, less rest more gains. You're resting too much = your conditioning sucks. I do 3-4min on upper body lifts and 3-5 min on lower body, proportional to RPE. Some days I fuck up the rest times and/or warmups and end up with the last set having a smaller RPE than the one right before it, but that's because I'm dumb (I only screw rest time on variants usually, maybe because I'm more used to squat, press, deadlift and bench).

It's not a case of conditioning, dude. You may be able to train your recovery/work capacity to some degree but you are always going to have to use lighter weights (probably much lighter) with 3-5 minute rest breaks than you would 8+ for lower body

I did the Hepburn programme for deadlifts which called for 8 sets of 2-3 with 2-3 minute rest breaks at ~80% of your 1RM with good results, but I've also had good results with long rest breaks (usually the more aggressive programmes that have you add weight each week). Since my concern is top set strength (e.g. 5 rep max as opposed to 5x5 weight), the fact that I get used to long rest breaks isn't a problem for me outside of logistics.

You might have a point for back off sets, but I'm not entirely convinced it's better for strength to go into sets fatigued (I think Jordan and others have said it takes ~8 minutes to replenish your ATP fully?)

[Allentown]

I strongly disagree that you will need to use much lighter weights with 3-5 minutes than with 8+ minutes.

[Murelli]

Kregna, less rest more gains. You're resting too much = your conditioning sucks. I do 3-4min on upper body lifts and 3-5 min on lower body, proportional to RPE. Some days I fuck up the rest times and/or warmups and end up with the last set having a smaller RPE than the one right before it, but that's because I'm dumb (I only screw rest time on variants usually, maybe because I'm more used to squat, press, deadlift and bench).

It's not a case of conditioning, dude. You may be able to train your recovery/work capacity to some degree but you are always going to have to use lighter weights (probably much lighter) with 3-5 minute rest breaks than you would 8+ for lower body

I did the Hepburn programme for deadlifts which called for 8 sets of 2-3 with 2-3 minute rest breaks at ~80% of your 1RM with good results, but I've also had good results with long rest breaks (usually the more aggressive programmes that have you add weight each week). Since my concern is top set strength (e.g. 5 rep max as opposed to 5x5 weight), the fact that I get used to long rest breaks isn't a problem for me outside of logistics.

You might have a point for back off sets, but I'm not entirely convinced it's better for strength to go into sets fatigued (I think Jordan and others have said it takes ~8 minutes to replenish your ATP fully?)

Embrace the workout length then. #startinglength #gaininggirth

Seriously, you don't need to do 8+ rest minutes unless you have just maxed out on a slow full body lift. I believe Jordan has wrote about this too.

[damufunman]

It's not a case of conditioning, dude. You may be able to train your recovery/work capacity to some degree but you are always going to have to use lighter weights (probably much lighter) with 3-5 minute rest breaks than you would 8+ for lower body

I did the Hepburn programme for deadlifts which called for 8 sets of 2-3 with 2-3 minute rest breaks at ~80% of your 1RM with good results, but I've also had good results with long rest breaks (usually the more aggressive programmes that have you add weight each week). Since my concern is top set strength (e.g. 5 rep max as opposed to 5x5 weight), the fact that I get used to long rest breaks isn't a problem for me outside of logistics.

You might have a point for back off sets, but I'm not entirely convinced it's better for strength to go into sets fatigued (I think Jordan and others have said it takes ~8 minutes to replenish your ATP fully?)

I strongly disagree that you will need to use much lighter weights with 3-5 minutes than with 8+ minutes.

Agree with Allen. You'll probably end up doing slightly less weight, but that seems to be the way to go if you're using volume to drive adaptation.

I think the resting as long as needed is more important for an LP, where toward the end you are working near max effort for most sets. Granted, I've allowed my volume day rest times to creep up to 7-8 minutes on TM (*booo*) but have since tried to reign it in, as well as trying to keep RPE a little lower. It's all the rage these days, doing volume work at lower RPEs, but I think it helps to facilitate lower rest times too. Mike T has even said to limit rest times, otherwise you're just judging the RPE/fatigue stuff and will be working a little harder than you should, or something like that.

And some conditioning outside of the strength work might help with recovery between sets, though not sure. Just do your Oly lifts EMOM or do some triples (awful) and that'll probably be sufficient conditioning, Lol.

[Kregna]

I strongly disagree that you will need to use much lighter weights with 3-5 minutes than with 8+ minutes.

I strongly disagree with you strongly disagreeing lol. If you are pushing fast loading (e.g. every session or every week), longer rest breaks allow you to do that for longer. As long as the top set increases (assuming your main focus is strength) all is good

Embrace the workout length then. #startinglength #gaininggirth

Seriously, you don't need to do 8+ rest minutes unless you have just maxed out on a slow full body lift. I believe Jordan has wrote about this too.

As in, you think the training effect isn't beneficial or you think you should be able to fully recover from sets in 3-5 minutes?

I think if you are able to rest 3-5 mins between squat sets you are either doing lots of volume and need to pace yourself (e.g. 8 sets), or your sets not actually very hard

During my linear progression, taking long rest breaks allowed me to keep adding weight to my sets for longer. This includes the first/top set, which is obviously uninhibited by fatigue. So the fact that I kept increasing the weight session after session, for months, means that I wasn't just lifting heavier because I was resting more (which you might be able to argue for someone increasing the weight on a 5x5 who's already increasing the rests). It was because I was getting stronger, which was being facilitated by the longer rest breaks.

How far did you guys take your LP? I took my squats to around 400lbs for a triple doing this, which is a lot more than most. I did 3x5 with 5-8 mins, then 2x5 with 8-10 mins, then I think it was a top set of 3-5 and 1-2 back off sets - all with long rest breaks. No way was I gonna add 2.5kg/5lbs a session for that long capping my rest breaks at 5 minutes

If your 1-5RM keeps going up, you are getting stronger and what you're doing is working - and this is what happened when I've taken long rest breaks. Obviously if you're training for hypertrophy or conditioning, you might try a different approach, although I have put on size even with long rest breaks and low reps

If you're training for strength, I don't know why are you capping rest breaks at 3-5 mins for squats apart from time-saving? I think you should try longer rest breaks with heavier weights for a few months.

[Allentown]

I didn't notice any improved performance resting beyond 5 minutes with deadlifts.

[Manveer]

If you're training for strength, I don't know why are you capping rest breaks at 3-5 mins for squats apart from time-saving? I think you should try longer rest breaks with heavier weights for a few months.

If you're taking 8 minutes and Alan is taking 5 minutes, he has time to do at least one more set in the time it takes you to do 3 sets. An extra set (if you can tolerate the extra volume... you probably can) will do more to make you stronger than using weights that are a little heavier.

Anyway, that is the theory. I take a long time and have struggled trying to work out faster for a while now. It is probably mostly mental, though.

[Kregna]

Agree with Allen. You'll probably end up doing slightly less weight, but that seems to be the way to go if you're using volume to drive adaptation.

I think the resting as long as needed is more important for an LP, where toward the end you are working near max effort for most sets. Granted, I've allowed my volume day rest times to creep up to 7-8 minutes on TM (*booo*) but have since tried to reign it in, as well as trying to keep RPE a little lower. It's all the rage these days, doing volume work at lower RPEs, but I think it helps to facilitate lower rest times too. Mike T has even said to limit rest times, otherwise you're just judging the RPE/fatigue stuff and will be working a little harder than you should, or something like that.

And some conditioning outside of the strength work might help with recovery between sets, though not sure. Just do your Oly lifts EMOM or do some triples (awful) and that'll probably be sufficient conditioning, Lol.

I think you're right in that the LP and TM (or other weekly progression programmes) benefit more from increased rest breaks. You can do linear periodization and keep increasing the weight each week while dropping reps as needed. If you expand the rest breaks, you can obviously go heavier. Ok, maybe you are only getting latter sets because you are resting more but that top set is still increasing, and if you are training for strength, that's the main concern surely?

This is how I envision the 2 approaches:

Example progression
200lbs: 5x5 (5 mins)
205lbs: 5x5 (5 mins)
210lbs: 5x5 (7 mins)
215lbs: 5x5 (7 mins)
220lbs: 5x5 (8-10 mins)
225lbs: 5x5 (8-10 mins)
230lbs: 5x5 (8-10 mins)

or

200lbs: 5x5 (5 mins)
205lbs: 5x5 (5 mins)
210lbs: 5x4 (5 mins)
215lbs: 5x4 (5 mins)
220lbs: 6x3 (5 mins)
225lbs: 6x3 (5 mins)
230lbs: 6x2 (5 mins)

If you stick rigidly to a fixed time between sets, you are more quickly going to have to drop the reps. Would you rather be doing 230lbs for 5 (first set could possibly get 6-7 reps) or 230lbs for at least 2 (first set could possibly get 3-4 reps but unlikely 5)?

Obviously, you could be a rogue and just decrease reps on latter sets, but from what I've seen, these types of aggressive loading programmes would have you drop the reps in all sets. You could also do a top set and then back offs, but you may as well go the longer rest route in that case, as it still gets you to a higher top set

[Kregna]

If you're training for strength, I don't know why are you capping rest breaks at 3-5 mins for squats apart from time-saving? I think you should try longer rest breaks with heavier weights for a few months.

If you're taking 8 minutes and Alan is taking 5 minutes, he has time to do at least one more set in the time it takes you to do 3 sets. An extra set (if you can tolerate the extra volume... you probably can) will do more to make you stronger than using weights that are a little heavier.

Anyway, that is the theory. I take a long time and have struggled trying to work out faster for a while now. It is probably mostly mental, though.

I think that's true if you are doing slightly more than double the rest break (Alan takes 5, Kregna takes 11-12), because doing another set takes another minute or so

But I was able to save time during my LP by dropping from 3x5 to 2x5 with slightly longer rest breaks. Yeah it's less volume, but I'm just saying that another set with a shorter rest is still more time consuming most of the time

[Manveer]

I think that's true if you are doing slightly more than double the rest break (Alan takes 5, Kregna takes 11-12), because doing another set takes another minute or so

But I was able to save time during my LP by dropping from 3x5 to 2x5 with slightly longer rest breaks. Yeah it's less volume, but I'm just saying that another set with a shorter rest is still more time consuming most of the time

Elon - 5 min rests
Set 1 - 1 min
Rest 1 - 5 mins
Set 2 - 1 min
Rest 2 - 5 mins
Set 3 - 1 min
Rest 3 - 5 mins
Set 4 - 1 min
Total: 19 mins

Kregs - 8 min rests
Set 1 - 1 min
Rest 1 - 8 mins
Set 2 - 1 min
Rest 2 - 8 mins
Set 3 - 1 min
Total: 19 mins

[damufunman]

I did something more like

Example progression
200lbs: 5x5 (5 mins)
205lbs: 5x5 (5 mins)
210lbs: 5x5 (7 5 mins)
215lbs: 5x5 (7 mins 5:30)
220lbs: 5x5 (8-10 mins 5:30)
225lbs: 5x5 (8-10 mins 5:30)
230lbs: 5x5 (8-10 mins 6 min)
If you stick rigidly to a fixed time between sets, you are more quickly going to have to drop the reps. Would you rather be doing 230lbs for 5 (first set could possibly get 6-7 reps) or 230lbs for at least 2 (first set could possibly get 3-4 reps but unlikely 5)?

Obviously, you could be a rogue and just decrease reps on latter sets, but from what I've seen, these types of aggressive loading programmes would have you drop the reps in all sets. You could also do a top set and then back offs, but you may as well go the longer rest route in that case, as it still gets you to a higher top set

Dropping the reps like you've shown and not increasing the sets to keep total reps the same I think is 1. unsustainable, and 2. more of a tapering effect, and don't think will really add to your strength for those last 3 weeks. You'd be going from 25 reps to 12 reps, and increasing the relative intensity toward the end there. And you are likely at the stage where volume needs to increase. When did you finish LP? Increasing intensity might work for a little while longer (mgil's idea taht early intermediate is maybe another 3-6 months where this may work), but long term you need to steadily increase volume. Don't take what I'm doing as an example, I'm guilty of not doing this right, working toward increasing volume and lowering average intensity, but like you I've added some volume via Olympic lifts, and like seeing top end strength going up. But thinking of changing my intensity day to a top single @8 plus backoff sets. Learn from my mistakes!

[damufunman]

Elon - 5 min rests
Set 1 - 1 min
Rest 1 - 5 mins
Set 2 - 1 min
Rest 2 - 5 mins
Set 3 - 1 min
Rest 3 - 5 mins
Set 4 - 1 min
Total: 19 mins

Kregs - 8 min rests
Set 1 - 1 min
Rest 1 - 8 mins
Set 2 - 1 min
Rest 2 - 8 mins
Set 3 - 1 min
Total: 19 mins

Manny, any idea what the effect would be if set 1 is higher intensity and drop sets for 2-4 in Elon's case? Is this kinda what Mike had back in the day with load drops for fatigue? Could this conceivably get average intensity back up to Kregs' version or would you want average intensity lower to account for the increased volume?
ETA: I guess for average intensity the same Elon's set 1 would have to be higher than Kregs' set 1-3; but not having to do sets across may allow this??

[Allentown]

Also, the only time I went up to 5 minutes is on a final set using sets across, or for a 1RM PR lift. 4 minutes has been on the long end of my rest times for a few years. So more like
Set 1- 1m
Rest 1- 3m
Set 2- 1m
Rest 2- 3m
Set 3- 1m
Rest 3- 3:30m
Set 4- 1m
Rest 4- 4m
Set 5- 1m

I should point out that I've always been terrible at low-rep ME lifts, though.

[Manveer]

Manny, any idea what the effect would be if set 1 is higher intensity and drop sets for 2-4 in Elon's case? Is this kinda what Mike had back in the day with load drops for fatigue? Could this conceivably get average intensity back up to Kregs' version or would you want average intensity lower to account for the increased volume?
ETA: I guess for average intensity the same Elon's set 1 would have to be higher than Kregs' set 1-3; but not having to do sets across may allow this??

I don't have any data really, but from my personal experience, dropping the weight 5% or 10% to keep the RPE below 9 hasn't stalled progress or anything. So, I think having ~30% more tonnage (very rough estimate) would be more beneficial than slightly higher average intensity, assuming that you haven't already exceeded the max useful tonnage for a session (unlikely, since most people are undertraining).

I'm not that familiar with the load drops from old RTS-style training. Probably something like x4@7, x4@8, x4@9, then drop 5% and repeat until @9. So the volume was kinda open ended (that's why they don't do it that way anymore).

[broseph]

I’m definitely guilty of rediculously long rests. Where every set is nearly a rep max, and you just have it stuck in your head that you MUST lift 5 more pounds than last time.

It’s been a very hard habit/mentality to break, but I’m getting there (and seeing gainz). Honestly though, on the big lifts my rests are still 6-8 minutes. And I agree with Manveer- it’s almost certainly more mental than physical (when the sets are not rep maxes).