Where lifters going wrong in quest for strength?

[BenM]

Andy pushes each lift above 90% only about once a month. No more than that.

The reason for increasing complexity in programming is because accumulation of volume for hypertrophy gets in the way of displaying strength but only displaying maximal strength inhibits the ability to accumulate volume.

Well.... with your first para, while we’ve been running this 8-5-2 protocol Andy has said in pretty much every workout ‘aim for a small PR over your last set of 8/5/2’ for the main movement of the day. So I disagree.

Not a criticism of his programming. But I have felt like I’ve been grinding a bit.

I was pointing out that Andy only pushes the lift over 90% of the 1RM about once a month. The “find your new 1RM” is about every eight weeks.

While I’m kinda using the sets and reps, I’m keeping most things at or under RPE 8. I think if you asked Andy directly, he’d only want you grinding on the maximum effort sessions.

Yes ok, point taken. If you'd said he only pushes each lift above 90% of 1RM I wouldn't have quibbled. But when he's suggesting you try for a new 8RM/5RM/2RM almost every session, that is still going over 90% / 9 RPE fairly regularly.

Aside from that, no argument that his programming consists of lots of volume in the 75-85% range which is what is needed for intermediate lifters to make progress.

Gotcha. I have been not too concerned with setting new 8RM or 5RM for a while.

Some of this is because that Rx is general. If you pinged on Andy saying you’re grinding every session, he might tell you to reset a few things.

That’s also true. I guess he probably expects savvy lifters to self regulate a bit. Some of us whippersnappers still haven’t learnt to control our egos - even when we know we’re not progressing well enough to keep attempting those PRs...

[KOTJ]

Link and context?

I'm sure I've heard him say that multiple times in his podcasts and articles. I found one. Context was intensity day of Texas Method.

At this stage in the trainees lifting career, higher force production work on a regular basis will be needed if continued progress is to occur. Not only will the trainee need to physiologically adapt to the unique stresses of loads in the 90-100% of 1RM range, but he will also need to start developing the skill of grinding against very heavy loads that move slower and challenge mental fortitude and focus.

https://startingstrength.com/article/un ... ensity-day

Or

However, this isn’t supposed to last more than a few months or even a few weeks, before the Intensity Day starts to use heavier sets in the 1-3 rep range. You must train with heavier weights if Force Production is your ultimate goal.

http://www.andybaker.com/successful-tra ... ogramming/

That makes sense for Texas Method, but Texas Method is dumb, so...

I know that his HLM stuff was solid. If he thinks frequent high intensity work is good for anyone not peaking, I'd disagree with him. Frankly, I don't really care how he programs, since none of his lifters are my lifters, I've seen him put out good information, and I'll continue to improve programming I give to lifters.

[d0uevenlift]

However, constant high intensity work is going to grind most lifters down.

Agreed. But with these peeking block from April-May and Sept-Oct you've spent 1/3 of the year above 90%.

That doesn’t mean he’s correct, nor does it mean it’s optimal.

[michael]

Above 90% doesn't have to be a grind right?

For example a single @8 wouldn't be a grind, but it would be over 90%.

[perman]

Above 90% doesn't have to be a grind right?

For example a single @8 wouldn't be a grind, but it would be over 90%.

1@8 is almost the only thing above 90% that's not a grind based on the RPE table though. 2@8.5 is listed as 90.1%, and lifting doubles or triples in the +90% area has a pretty high probability to be somewhat grindy unless you got way stronger or have an exceptionally good day.

[Manveer]

Above 90% doesn't have to be a grind right?

For example a single @8 wouldn't be a grind, but it would be over 90%.

Doesn’t have to be, but singles are the only case where 90%+ would not be a grind. If you did singles across with the same weight as x1@8, most people would end up grinding on the 4th one or so, I would think.

I haven’t done any singles since August. I just randomly tested bench a couple of weeks ago and got a 33# PR (375—>408). I think it depends on the individual lifter and their response to training. Not everyone needs 90%+ work to progress.

Where most lifters go wrong is probably not training hard enough or with enough consistency.

[Hanley]

Reading the Cressey quote, I was struck by how fluffy/hand-wavy it was.

Content for meatheads has really improved in the last 5 years.

[MattimusMaximus]

meatheads

I like this thread, MOAR content!

[SeanHerbison]

Saw an interesting quote from an Eric Cressey interview today.

Reading the Cressey quote, I was struck by how fluffy/hand-wavy it was.

Huh. I'd only vaguely heard of Cressey before, but I've been reading a bit of his stuff recently, though from the business side rather than training. He has pretty concrete advice there. Interesting that he'd come up here too.

Also, he introduced me to the term "impostor syndrome", which I hadn't heard before. I always feel like that, even when people drive 5+ hours to train with me and then pay me more than I charge, because they think I didn't charge enough for the value I gave them. Interesting, and a bit comforting, to know that it's a real thing, and not just me.

[Kregna]

How much exposure do you need to high intensity training to maintain / increase strength gains (i.e. 1-3RM)? So how much volume at 85%+ on a weekly/monthly basis?

I've seen some strong guys (Austin) do 1 single, then a load of back off sets with a much lower weight (don't know what else he was doing - this was just 1 session). Is 1 single at 90% enough to maintain/increase top end strength (done once a week, followed by back off sets at 70-80%)?

[Hanley]

How much exposure do you need to high intensity training to maintain / increase strength gains (i.e. 1-3RM)? So how much volume at 85%+ on a weekly/monthly basis?

I've seen some strong guys (Austin) do 1 single, then a load of back off sets with a much lower weight (don't know what else he was doing - this was just 1 session). Is 1 single at 90% enough to maintain/increase top end strength (done once a week, followed by back off sets at 70-80%)?

Great question.

Embarrassingly, I have no idea. I don't think anybody really knows.

From the ass estimate: 20% of sessions in a cycle should include loads @9-10.

[TimK]

How much exposure do you need to high intensity training to maintain / increase strength gains (i.e. 1-3RM)? So how much volume at 85%+ on a weekly/monthly basis?

I've seen some strong guys (Austin) do 1 single, then a load of back off sets with a much lower weight (don't know what else he was doing - this was just 1 session). Is 1 single at 90% enough to maintain/increase top end strength (done once a week, followed by back off sets at 70-80%)?

Great question.

Embarrassingly, I have no idea. I don't think anybody really knows.

From the ass estimate: 20% of sessions in a cycle should include loads @9-10.

Seems like you guys are talking about two different things. @9-10 can be accomplished at any absolute intensity, depending on the rep range.

[Hanley]

How much exposure do you need to high intensity training to maintain / increase strength gains (i.e. 1-3RM)? So how much volume at 85%+ on a weekly/monthly basis?

I've seen some strong guys (Austin) do 1 single, then a load of back off sets with a much lower weight (don't know what else he was doing - this was just 1 session). Is 1 single at 90% enough to maintain/increase top end strength (done once a week, followed by back off sets at 70-80%)?

Great question.

Embarrassingly, I have no idea. I don't think anybody really knows.

From the ass estimate: 20% of sessions in a cycle should include loads @9-10.

Seems like you guys are talking about two different things. @9-10 can be accomplished at any absolute intensity, depending on the rep range.

Sorry, I confused shit using RPE.

Neural components of strength should probably be trained in ~20-25% of sessions. High intensity work is very recovery “expensive” and necessarily compromises tonnage...

[Sinkroenissity]

Also, he introduced me to the term "impostor syndrome", which I hadn't heard before. I always feel like that, even when people drive 5+ hours to train with me and then pay me more than I charge, because they think I didn't charge enough for the value I gave them. Interesting, and a bit comforting, to know that it's a real thing, and not just me.

Surprised you hadn't heard of imposter syndrome before. A lot of my friends (and me) suffer from it at least some of the time, even after (as you note) many outside observers (in this case, your clients) offer plenty of evidence that somebody is good at whatever it is that they do.

I often joke that "low bar to clear" (no pun intended on this forum) is my best ally in life, and sometimes that's worth remembering, too. My father was always leery of being referred to as an "expert" in his field, and said "I always wondered what would happen when people found out I wasn't THAT good. Eventually I realized that it wasn't that I was that good, it's that everyone else was so bad. So, relatively speaking, I was an expert!"

What seems obvious or easy to you isn't to a lot of other people, and often it seems easy because you've invested a crapload of time and effort into making it easy for you now.

(And enough of my stating the obvious...)

[SeanHerbison]

What seems obvious or easy to you isn't to a lot of other people, and often it seems easy because you've invested a crapload of time and effort into making it easy for you now.

Well stated.

(And enough of my stating the obvious...)

Just because it's obvious doesn't mean we get it. Sometimes it's good to hear someone vocalize it.

I think we often compare ourselves to where we'd like to be, and think about how much we know we don't know. We compare ourselves to our chosen gurus, but even there, how much of that is just because we can't see from their perspective? They very well might feel like a fraud too.

It's like lifting, where it's good to keep a perspective that keeps you humble. Sure, I might pull 600+, but I just saw video of Mike T pulling 800+ the same year he graduated from the Academy, so probably four or five years younger than I am now. But at the same time, I really shouldn't get down about it too much. Compared to the average lifter, my pull is awesome. And compared to the average "coach", I'm a genius.

So yeah, both ways. Thanks.

[KyleSchuant]

Coaching, or lifting, I think: don't worry about where you are, just worry about getting better. How good am I at either? Not very. But I'm getting better.

Slowly.

[Hanley]

Coaching, or lifting, I think: don't worry about where you are, just worry about getting better. How good am I at either? Not very. But I'm getting better.

Slowly.

Let’s get real: You and I are lazy and unaccomplished.

If we were actually getting better, I’d be more open to the positive effects of “just worrying about getting better”.

Sans actual better results, I think yours is an attitude of indulgent complacency

[cwd]

Coaching, or lifting, I think: don't worry about where you are, just worry about getting better. How good am I at either? Not very. But I'm getting better.

Slowly.

Let’s get real: You and I are lazy and unaccomplished.

If we were actually getting better, I’d be more open to the positive effects of “just worrying about getting better”.

Sans actual better results, I think yours is an attitude of indulgent complacency

I cook every day, but don't get much better at it. A professional chef would scoff. I'm barely even trying.

I lift 4x/week, but my rate of improvement is low, and I'm quite weak for my size/age. A professional athlete would scoff.

Don't even get me started on my driving...

[Hanley]

Coaching, or lifting, I think: don't worry about where you are, just worry about getting better. How good am I at either? Not very. But I'm getting better.

Slowly.

Let’s get real: You and I are lazy and unaccomplished.

If we were actually getting better, I’d be more open to the positive effects of “just worrying about getting better”.

Sans actual better results, I think yours is an attitude of indulgent complacency

I cook every day, but don't get much better at it. A professional chef would scoff. I'm barely even trying.

I lift 4x/week, but my rate of improvement is low, and I'm quite weak for my size/age. A professional athlete would scoff.

Don't even get me started on my driving...

When it comes to lifting, you are indeed putting forth tremendous effort and getting better.

Kyle is not.

I’m tiring of his vacuous wisdom.

[Manveer]

When it comes to lifting, you are indeed putting forth tremendous effort and getting better.

Kyle is not.

I’m tiring of his vacuous wisdom.

Kyle I wish your keyboard was broken

QFT

Also, you don't have to do singles to improve your 1RM. Maybe there are approaches that are more optimal than others... but we are just guessing here, and according to Mike T a lot of this varies by individual response. I can still execute heavy singles relatively well after months away from them.