Sumo deadlift thread

[Les]

I'm getting on the sumo train to see if I can do something with it!


Today I did my first sumo pulls and they went ok. I figured out a good grip width, and the middle of my foot is on the power rings, which is not super wide for me. I help my back in extension really good off the floor for all my sets up to 430. For my last 3 sets at 430, I didn't round but I lost the super tight extension I had on the last few reps of each set.

I just need to work my technique and build that mid-back up a bit.

[Les]

[ChasingCurls69]

More often than not, I see novice (and experienced) conventional pullers lift with their glutes and hamstrings checked out and lower back doing most of the work.

I don't know what this means. If the glutes and hamstrings don't contract, the bar isn't going anywhere, and if you pull conventional with a rounded back the spinal erectors are working less, not more.

I think the glutes and hamstrings are doing less work because rounding the back allows the lift to start with less hip/knee flexion, and the hamstrings are already shortened if the back is rounded. So besides the disk injury thing, if it's not a position regularly trained a lot of people can't lock out a deadlift with the spinal erectors working concentrically.

[KDW]

More often than not, I see novice (and experienced) conventional pullers lift with their glutes and hamstrings checked out and lower back doing most of the work.

I don't know what this means. If the glutes and hamstrings don't contract, the bar isn't going anywhere, and if you pull conventional with a rounded back the spinal erectors are working less, not more.

So its more a matter of timing of contraction and type of contraction. When I say the glutes and hamstrings are checked out, its just a short way of saying that:
1. Quads are being used to break the barbell off the floor.
2. Lumbar erectors are elongating during this process.
3. Glutes are contracting but instead of acting mostly against the resistance of the bar, they are mostly tilting the pelvis posteriorly.
4. The combination of 2 and 3 cause a premature shortening of the hamstrings, and yes while the hamstrings are moving the hips into extension against the resistance provided by the barbell, they cannot do so as effectively as possible due to loss of initial tensioning.
5. The bar speed craters as the bar approaches lockout, and if the lifter does not have the erector strength to regain normal anatomical position, the bar stops moving. Hitching usually follows or some weird attempt to extend the back.

So yes, the p-chain is still contributing in the "checked out" version of the lift that is commonly seen but it is not contributing in a way that would be the strongest way to take advantage of the large muscular buttocks and hamstrings.

[KDW]

I googled "narrow sumo deadlift" just to get an idea of what they look like, and this thread popped up as one of the results. Is it the one you're thinking of, @KDW?

yeah I think this is the one.

[DirtyRed]

I guess this goes here . . .

. . . Bill Star, on the usefulness of the Sumo Deadlift:

Now for some variations. My favorite is the Sumo version of the deadlift. What I like about the Sumo style is that it hits the adductors much more so than the conventional style and those groups are difficult to strengthen unless you have access to an adductor machine.

That's idiotic. Squats will train adductors better than sumo deadlift and loads better than those truly useless Yes/No machines. BUT WAIT!

Most don’t. I would guess that about 33% of all the athletes I dealt with at Hopkins came in with relatively weak adductors. This is because the quads, abductors, and even the hamstrings get a lot more work during the participating of any sport, so they lag behind until the athletes starting going low in the back squat and bring their adductors up to par.

He even says that squats will train your adductors.

"But what if someone isn't squatting to depth?" I can hear idiots typing as they read this. Simple: SQUAT TO DEPTH. Stop finding ways around stupid problems and solve the fucking problems.

some people definitely need to pull sumo, if they want to lift heavy (relative) weights; their lower backs just cant set and maintain extension.

And by what mechanism do you think this happens?

I don't know and frankly don't care. Both types of deadlifts are legitimate, and if one allows someone to pull the same or more weight, safely, I don't care.

If by "legitimate" you mean they're both breaking a barbell off the ground with a lifter's own strength, sure. If you mean they're suitable to be compared for the purposes of competition, or that they're interchangeable for the purposes of training strength to apply to general athletics, you are a fucking idiot and should be ashamed to charge anyone money for your shit coaching.

Coaching so shit you can't get a human being to extend their spine, AND you can't even explain why that is. Could you possibly explain why these "people" apparently can manage to extend their lower backs for a squat? Or when they're standing? They don't seem incapable of doing it, you seem incapable of coaching a conventional deadlift worth a shit.

And I've had enough of this "your muscles don't know if you're pulling conventional or sumo" bullshit as well. Of fucking course they don't know. Much like the goddamn idiots who spout this, your muscles don't have brains. They will respond differently to the different training stimulus, however, as sumo and conventional are two distinctly different lifts.

A sumo deadlift, by "virtue" of having the hips closer to the ground due to hip abduction shortening the vertical length of the leg, causes a lifter's back to be more vertical at address (given a constant arm length, at least, which I think is fair to assume). Which shortens the horizontal distance between the hips and shoulders. Which causes their to be less torque acting around the fulcrum of the hips for a given weight (because the force of gravity acting directly downwards from the shoulders is closer horizontally to your hips). Which means less resistance for the muscles causing hip extension to overcome. It also means there's less force on the muscles that hold the spine in extension to do so.

Therefore, sumo deadlifts do not strengthen the hip and back extensors as well as conventional deadlifts. Which is usually the entire point of deadlifting in a general strength training program for sports and life.

2-Rip etal. just shits on sumo from powerlifting perspective also.
Latest was "all the heaviest deadlifts were pulled conventional".
Right^ . . . but he dances around, or doesn't give up, the obvious the reasons for this.
(SHWs are going to lift all of the ultimate "heaviest" lifts;
and sumo apparently doesn't suit their SHW body frame well . . .duh)

For the purposes of powerlifting, among other arguably more pressing concerns (like the lack of work done due to the naked half repping), sumo runs into the same problem as the idiotic bench press grip width rules, in that there is a hard "max width" in an absolute sense, that has nothing to do with anthropometry, unlike depth in a squat. A lifter's feet can ONLY be as wide as the the distance between the inner-most plate on either side of the bar. Not by rule, but by the immutable* fact of the universe that two things cannot occupy the same place at the same time. This is why you see 4'9'' girls bragging about a 4x bodyweight deadlift (wowee! 475 lbs!). They can stand REALLY wide compared to their leg length, in order to do as little actual work in the lift as possible. While someone who is fuggen HYOOJ, like, say, The Mountain (real name is completely unspellable), has their feet hit the plates when they're barely beyond squat width.

This is one of the many, many reasons why powerlifting is bullshit and will never, EVER be in the Olympics.

*I really don't give a shit if it IS, in fact, mutable at relativistic speeds or in quantum mechanics or string theory or whatever other whack ass bullshit doesn't apply to the practical reality of a powerlifter pulling a barbell

[Manveer]

You’re not accounting for the higher load that can be used with sumo for people that lift more with that style.

[KOTJ]

I guess this goes here . . .

. . . Bill Star, on the usefulness of the Sumo Deadlift:

Now for some variations. My favorite is the Sumo version of the deadlift. What I like about the Sumo style is that it hits the adductors much more so than the conventional style and those groups are difficult to strengthen unless you have access to an adductor machine.

That's idiotic. Squats will train adductors better than sumo deadlift and loads better than those truly useless Yes/No machines. BUT WAIT!

Most don’t. I would guess that about 33% of all the athletes I dealt with at Hopkins came in with relatively weak adductors. This is because the quads, abductors, and even the hamstrings get a lot more work during the participating of any sport, so they lag behind until the athletes starting going low in the back squat and bring their adductors up to par.

He even says that squats will train your adductors.

"But what if someone isn't squatting to depth?" I can hear idiots typing as they read this. Simple: SQUAT TO DEPTH. Stop finding ways around stupid problems and solve the fucking problems.

some people definitely need to pull sumo, if they want to lift heavy (relative) weights; their lower backs just cant set and maintain extension.

And by what mechanism do you think this happens?

I don't know and frankly don't care. Both types of deadlifts are legitimate, and if one allows someone to pull the same or more weight, safely, I don't care.

If by "legitimate" you mean they're both breaking a barbell off the ground with a lifter's own strength, sure. If you mean they're suitable to be compared for the purposes of competition, or that they're interchangeable for the purposes of training strength to apply to general athletics, you are a fucking idiot and should be ashamed to charge anyone money for your shit coaching.

Coaching so shit you can't get a human being to extend their spine, AND you can't even explain why that is. Could you possibly explain why these "people" apparently can manage to extend their lower backs for a squat? Or when they're standing? They don't seem incapable of doing it, you seem incapable of coaching a conventional deadlift worth a shit.

And I've had enough of this "your muscles don't know if you're pulling conventional or sumo" bullshit as well. Of fucking course they don't know. Much like the goddamn idiots who spout this, your muscles don't have brains. They will respond differently to the different training stimulus, however, as sumo and conventional are two distinctly different lifts.

A sumo deadlift, by "virtue" of having the hips closer to the ground due to hip abduction shortening the vertical length of the leg, causes a lifter's back to be more vertical at address (given a constant arm length, at least, which I think is fair to assume). Which shortens the horizontal distance between the hips and shoulders. Which causes their to be less torque acting around the fulcrum of the hips for a given weight (because the force of gravity acting directly downwards from the shoulders is closer horizontally to your hips). Which means less resistance for the muscles causing hip extension to overcome. It also means there's less force on the muscles that hold the spine in extension to do so.

Therefore, sumo deadlifts do not strengthen the hip and back extensors as well as conventional deadlifts. Which is usually the entire point of deadlifting in a general strength training program for sports and life.

2-Rip etal. just shits on sumo from powerlifting perspective also.
Latest was "all the heaviest deadlifts were pulled conventional".
Right^ . . . but he dances around, or doesn't give up, the obvious the reasons for this.
(SHWs are going to lift all of the ultimate "heaviest" lifts;
and sumo apparently doesn't suit their SHW body frame well . . .duh)

For the purposes of powerlifting, among other arguably more pressing concerns (like the lack of work done due to the naked half repping), sumo runs into the same problem as the idiotic bench press grip width rules, in that there is a hard "max width" in an absolute sense, that has nothing to do with anthropometry, unlike depth in a squat. A lifter's feet can ONLY be as wide as the the distance between the inner-most plate on either side of the bar. Not by rule, but by the immutable* fact of the universe that two things cannot occupy the same place at the same time. This is why you see 4'9'' girls bragging about a 4x bodyweight deadlift (wowee! 475 lbs!). They can stand REALLY wide compared to their leg length, in order to do as little actual work in the lift as possible. While someone who is fuggen HYOOJ, like, say, The Mountain (real name is completely unspellable), has their feet hit the plates when they're barely beyond squat width.

This is one of the many, many reasons why powerlifting is bullshit and will never, EVER be in the Olympics.

*I really don't give a shit if it IS, in fact, mutable at relativistic speeds or in quantum mechanics or string theory or whatever other whack ass bullshit doesn't apply to the practical reality of a powerlifter pulling a barbell

I understand that you have a hard time getting laid or just talking to women, due to the combination of your personality and looks, so you have a real Edge Lord identity. That's not a good reason to shit talk, especially in the non-shitposting forum.

I get it, you have a squat and deadlift that guys at lighter weight classes have, despite you training longer, and your bench is as developed as undescended testicles on an 18 year old boy...but there is no reason to be a dick.

Perhaps you can coach @KDW and @KoolaidMannn how to maintain lumbar extension at heavier intensities, since SS staff and a handful of coaches were unable to make it happen.

Anyway, I guess I'll stick to getting people stronger and you can continue edge lording online.

[KoolaidMannn]

@DirtyRed


Ah so you are calling Kong @KDW a “goddamn fucking idiot” that’s pretty rich dude. This makes you seem dumb.

Also considering that there have been studies that show sumo with “normal range of motion” uses just as much muscle mass as conventional, makes you seem dumb.

Calling KOTJ a scam, just makes you dumb.

3 dumbs = probably dumb

[LexAnderson]

@KoolaidMannn if we are referring to @DirtyRed, then yes, he is a lunatic.

[KoolaidMannn]

@LexAnderson fixed

[Chebass88]

I'm going to use sumo as the secondary pull in my next training block. It will be exciting to learn a new lift.

[KDW]

...Coaching so shit you can't get a human being to extend their spine, AND you can't even explain why that is...

Its not simply to extend a human spine.

Its the ability to extend the human spine at certain degrees of hip flexion in individuals with different anthropometries.

There are certain factors that can cause an impingement at the hip joint with very closed hip angles. We already know that in a squat, if you push your knees out far enough, you will clear this impingement, and spinal extension will be maintained at depth in the squat. If you are from SS, you would know this. Naturally you would have read the Active Hip article. (Maybe not.)

In some individuals the combination of a more closed hip angle and this impingement will prevent spinal extension in the conventional deadlift because the pelvis will be blocked from further anterior tilt. This blockade causes a drag on the spine and the extension will either not be set, or in some cases, artificially set and will unravel as soon as the pull begins. The latter was my case and there are several examples of this. Just go to IG and watch ppl pull conventional.

If they could get the knees far enough apart to clear the impingement, then they could extend the spine. However, the arms are artificially creating a blockade for the knees to go out further.

As an example, I can completely extend my spine on a snatch grip deadlift because my arms are out of the way and I can take a slightly wider stance and shove my knees out similar to the way I can in the squat WITHOUT INTERFERENCE OF MY ARMS. The impingement is cleared and my pelvis is free to tilt anteriorly.

Similarly in the sumo deadlift, I give my pelvis freedom to tilt anteriorly and tightly set my lumbar spine. If you have watched any of my sumo deadlifts, my back angle is still very similar to other's conventional back angle. So nothing is lost in training the back. I just get to do it with my lumbar set properly with sumo....which is a better long term training decision than stubbornly ignoring my options and training conventional with way less than optimal technique.

You can ignore this all you want @DirtyRed but you can't be so simple in your statements. It highlights your lack of knowledge.

[BootyBeech]

Dirtyred has been on the PBR again.

[damufunman]

I've mostly ignored this thread because I'm not currently and don't see a need to pull sumo, however upon coaching my wife, it became apparent that she was having issues getting her back set while deadlifting conventional. At the top and lowering the bar she shows a beautiful neutral to slightly arched position. Once the bar gets to about 3" from the floor (and when she begins the pull and all the way up) it unlocks and goes to about flat, if not slightly flexed. I tried having her do a narrower stance with toes turned out more, but that didn't help. I think her pelvis is running into the tops of her thighs, so I asked her to try a narrow sumo stance thinking this would allow her to set her pelvis a little better, and lo and behold, much better position.
She's only on her fourth week of LP (after a year and a half layoff from the last time she's lifted), is this too soon to move to non-conventional and should I have her work more on it? Or if it really is an anatomical issue is she better of just going this route? With the narrower sumo/wide conventional stance her back is still fairly horizontal, so I'm not cuing her to drop her hips. So far no desire to compete but if that changes then I might consider full sumo if she's interested.
One last question, dropping her hands straight down from her shoulders puts them just off the knurling onto the smooth, so grip is problematic. Have her go a little wider grip, or see if she can hold on without the knurling? Used straps last night for a backoff set, so that's an option if not competing.

[chromoly]

@damufunman narrow shoulder lifter checking in! My hands are partly on the smooth if I just drop them straight down. When I pull sumo, two fingers are on he smooth. For conventional, I purposefully put my hands just at the start of the knurling, so they're completely on the knurling. I would have her try a slightly wider grip and maybe even a wider stance and see if she can set her back.

This allows me to take a slightly wider stance also... And thus makes it a bit easier to extend my back into the proper position.

Although... Why not ask her if she'd rather do sumo or conventional (with these tweaks)? As pointed out in other threads, consistency trumps most else, and if she's having fun or enjoying lifting, she's more likely to do it regularly.

[damufunman]

Although... Why not ask her if she'd rather do sumo or conventional (with these tweaks)? As pointed out in other threads, consistency trumps most else, and if she's having fun or enjoying lifting, she's more likely to do it regularly.

She did express some concern about going wider, said it felt weird and she was having trouble controlling the weight, so I thought going full sumo might be worse, and she could use some hip hinge practice. But consistency is also a great point, so I'll check that.

[chromoly]

She did express some concern about going wider, said it felt weird and she was having trouble controlling the weight, so I thought going full sumo might be worse, and she could use some hip hinge practice. But consistency is also a great point, so I'll check that.

But! If her grip is naturally narrower than the knurling, isn't her sumo grip also going to put her hands on the smooth of the bar...? EITHER WAY, I would suggest you check with her and see what she prefers. But as an aside, "feeling weird" and "having trouble controlling the weight" could just mean that she doesn't have her technique down and needs to get used to deadlifting...

[damufunman]

She did express some concern about going wider, said it felt weird and she was having trouble controlling the weight, so I thought going full sumo might be worse, and she could use some hip hinge practice. But consistency is also a great point, so I'll check that.

But! If her grip is naturally narrower than the knurling, isn't her sumo grip also going to put her hands on the smooth of the bar...? EITHER WAY, I would suggest you check with her and see what she prefers. But as an aside, "feeling weird" and "having trouble controlling the weight" could just mean that she doesn't have her technique down and needs to get used to deadlifting...

Yes and yes. No plan on competing right now, so DOH as much as she can, straps otherwise. She doesn't like deadlifting so anything that'll make them it's terrible for her would be good. We'll give sumo a go this week.

[Sumo]

Fuck, and I thought Rip was an overbearing asshole on the internet. @DirtyRed you should call up Rip and teach him a thing or two.

@damufunman I also grip inside the knurling when I Sumo, I have 2 fingers on the smooth when I use an eleiko power bar, but only 1 for an okie bar and most other bars that have no flex. With hook grip it makes no difference really, I have yet to drop a deadlift.