Experiments in High-Volume, Low-Fatigue Bench Programming (more "Montana Method" nonsense)

[Hanley]

Curious how I should dial in volume as opposed to rest periods.

e1RM: 322.5
70%: 225
65%: 210

On Monday, I did 9 sets of 5 @70%, with strict 2 min rest periods (unracked the bar when I heard the timer go off on my phone, and immediately reset the timer after finishing the set). Last set was around @7-8. Afterward I also did 3 sets of CGBP, 205x10,10,7, with 3 min rest (based on previous posts in this thread, I plan on switching to LTE's or something similar).

Wednesday (today) I did 9 sets of 7 @65%, same rest protocol. This time, however, bar speed/RPE on set 6 was about the same as Monday's last set. I stubbornly stuck to the protocol and completed 9 sets, with the last set being a legit @10.

Going into this workout, I did still have some mild soreness lingering from Monday.

@Hanley do you find the 65% session to be more fatiguing than the 70%? I wouldn't have thought so. Maybe I overdid it on Monday (if so maybe the CGBP was the culprit)? Or maybe I just need to do fewer sets on Wednesday? Or I could just bump rest periods up to 2:30...? I'm sure with long rest periods this type of session could go on much longer, but at some point will exceed session MRV which would be counter productive.

I'd definitely scrap the CGBP. Can't you do pushdowns? I think that's all you'd need for tricep assistance.

Bump rest to 2:30. I'm starting to use that as a default.

For next week, I think I'd keep the target volume, but add the conditional "stop if you hit an @9 set".

Cool, thanks for the feedback.

I've been doing some tricep stuff on all three days... CGBP, Dips, Pressdowns for variety. I was actually considering overhead extensions to replace the CGBP with the rationale that it would hit the long head better. But that might be broscience.

Also - having thought on this some more - I think I'd cut this Friday's session if you hit an @8 set (but you won't because procebo). You just don't want to get in a fatigue hole...

[heidikay]

Edit: I think the 70% session is a little tougher...

For OHP, I did the 65% session on Saturday and for some reason I found it harder. I had to extend my rest time to 3:00 before my last set.

I did the 70% last night and it felt much easier to me. Easily did it with 2 minutes rest and ended it with energy to spare.

[mettkeks]

Ah, the old Dave Hoff approach.

This method sounds quite interesting. Currently running a Brian Alsruhe program to improve my conditioning, so I might do something like this / Montana method after that.

I mentioned on Hanleys IG when he posted about this, but I've had solid results on Korte 3x3 where the volume block is basically 6-8 lightish sets of 5-6, 3x per week, for SBD. Something like 60-70% for a ton of faaahves.

Korte's 3x3 is essentially Hypertrophie Week 1: 68% x 6-8s x 6r M,W,F adding 2% per week up to 74% in W2.

Strength phase is M,F: 70% x 5s x4r and 1-2 singles @80-95% on W. Beginners are recommended to start with 6 sets the first time.

[ErminK]

Ah, the old Dave Hoff approach.

This method sounds quite interesting. Currently running a Brian Alsruhe program to improve my conditioning, so I might do something like this / Montana method after that.

I mentioned on Hanleys IG when he posted about this, but I've had solid results on Korte 3x3 where the volume block is basically 6-8 lightish sets of 5-6, 3x per week, for SBD. Something like 60-70% for a ton of faaahves.

Korte's 3x3 is essentially Hypertrophie Week 1: 68% x 6-8s x 6r M,W,F adding 2% per week up to 74% in W2.

Strength phase is M,F: 70% x 5s x4r and 1-2 singles @80-95% on W. Beginners are recommended to start with 6 sets the first time.

I took 105% of my current one rep maxes as a base to calculate off of. The set percentages were increased by 2%, so 60-66% instead of 58-64%. Squats 8x5, bench 8x6, deadlift 4x5 conventional, 4x5 sumo.

Strength was singles for heavy work, 3x3 for squads and deads and 5x4 for bench light work.

I am a beginner and doing 8 sets of everything was awesome. The weights I lift aren't that hard to recover from and the individual sets are very low RPE.

To be honest, the program is nothing special at all, but it was quite fun. I found my squat and bench responding quite well to submax high tonnage work, which is why Hanleys stuff is so interesting. Haven't yet found what works for my deadlift

[mettkeks]

Ah, the old Dave Hoff approach.

This method sounds quite interesting. Currently running a Brian Alsruhe program to improve my conditioning, so I might do something like this / Montana method after that.

I mentioned on Hanleys IG when he posted about this, but I've had solid results on Korte 3x3 where the volume block is basically 6-8 lightish sets of 5-6, 3x per week, for SBD. Something like 60-70% for a ton of faaahves.

Korte's 3x3 is essentially Hypertrophie Week 1: 68% x 6-8s x 6r M,W,F adding 2% per week up to 74% in W2.

Strength phase is M,F: 70% x 5s x4r and 1-2 singles @80-95% on W. Beginners are recommended to start with 6 sets the first time.

I took 105% of my current one rep maxes as a base to calculate off of. The set percentages were increased by 2%, so 60-66% instead of 58-64%. Squats 8x5, bench 8x6, deadlift 4x5 conventional, 4x5 sumo.

Strength was singles for heavy work, 3x3 for squads and deads and 5x4 for bench light work.

I am a beginner and doing 8 sets of everything was awesome. The weights I lift aren't that hard to recover from and the individual sets are very low RPE.

To be honest, the program is nothing special at all, but it was quite fun. I found my squat and bench responding quite well to submax high tonnage work, which is why Hanleys stuff is so interesting. Haven't yet found what works for my deadlift

The original %'s were for equipped lifters in the 90's. Since then the %'s were changed to +10% for raw lifters and -10% for modern equippment. Only the heavy singles in the strength phase stay the same because these are for the competition lifts, and the % are based off of those.

You're absolutely right, the program is extremely basic (maybe pretty brutal), but it has produced the best german powerlifters, especially Benchers.

[ErminK]

The original %'s were for equipped lifters in the 90's. Since then the %'s were changed to +10% for raw lifters and -10% for modern equippment. Only the heavy singles in the strength phase stay the same because these are for the competition lifts, and the % are based off of those.

You're absolutely right, the program is extremely basic (maybe pretty brutal), but it has produced the best german powerlifters, especially Benchers.

A coach on reddit told me he set it up this way for lots of his raw lifters so I just did the same. Taking 105% of your max also raises the percentages, so it turns out quite okay I'd say He also told me that 90s lifters didn't have gear that was insanely supportive like modern gear, so the very slight increase was enough. I have no idea whether that's true or not since I was born in the 90s haha.

Now that I think about it, perhaps I was able to hit 8 sets of everything every single workout because it was lighter that it was supposed to be.

[Hanley]

Haven't yet found what works for my deadlift

Try getting lots of volume via SGDL and deficits...and complement this with heavy comp singles and rack pulls (or other supramax work [reverse bands])

[GlasgowJock]

Try getting lots of volume via SGDL and deficits...and complement this with heavy comp singles and rack pulls (or other supramax work [reverse bands])

What rep x set ranges you recommending for volume sgdl and how many conv. dl singles mate? Still 55-60% of e1rm for the sgdl stuff ref. MM?

Pushing heavy singles with arbitrary 1-2% increases week to week or adding singles ?

[OCG]

Fatigue may play a big part in this. If I do too many workouts with heavy deadlifts I find myself getting weaker. I've also had the most success stopping deadlifts two weeks before a meet.

Yeah. Currently I can't pull more than once a week or my grip and low back gets too fried. Pulling back from twice a week and actually doing less has made my deadlift feel better.

Personally I find lots of submax pulls tends to make my submax pulls feel great and my very heavy pulls feel like shit. I need something heavy in my hands otherwise I just don't have the technique down. Might try out Hanleys idea though.

[brkriete]

Still 55-60% of e1rm for the sgdl stuff ref. MM?

That's about what I've been doing and 5x5 is doable and leaves my upper back and legs feeling worked but not toasted the next day. ~1-2 minutes rest between sets. Haven't really been doing it long or frequently enough to see much hypertrophy but I have a feeling it will lead to it. Thinking of pushing up the set count as I get accustomed to it.

[Hanley]

What do you think about throwing in 1-3 singles w/ slingshot, using current e1RM weight, on the heavy day?

I'm stealing this for my own programming.

[ErminK]

Haven't yet found what works for my deadlift

Try getting lots of volume via SGDL and deficits...and complement this with heavy comp singles and rack pulls (or other supramax work [reverse bands])

Thanks for the suggestion! So you mean like 2 pull days, one day lots of snatch grip or deficits, the other just a few heavy singles?

[Hanley]

So you mean like 2 pull days, one day lots of snatch grip or deficits, the other just a few heavy singles?

Yup. 2 pull days a week. I think I'd mix and match sessions to balance stress....so

SGDL/Deficits

low stress = 5x5 @50-60% primary pull e1rm
medium stress = 3 sets 4-6 reps aiming for @7s on all sets
high-ish stress = initial set of 4-6 reps @9, drop 5-10% for 2-3 more sets of 4-6

2nd Pull Day
low-ish stress = 8-15 singles primary deadlift with ~80%
medium stress = 8-12 singles primary deadlift @ intensities ranging from 82-90+%
high stress = overload/supramax rack pull or reverse band singles (maybe 5-10?)


^ so just match low-stress pull day 1 with or medium or high stress pull day 2...etc

[TimK]

What do you think about throwing in 1-3 singles w/ slingshot, using current e1RM weight, on the heavy day?

I'm stealing this for my own programming.

[Hanley]

What do you think about throwing in 1-3 singles w/ slingshot, using current e1RM weight, on the heavy day?

I'm stealing this for my own programming.

Okay...the slingshot is pretty awesome. I feel like it [god I hate myself for saying this] primed my CNS or some shit...the follow-up non-slingshot TnG doubles with ~85% felt amazing. This was the final double

[TimK]

What do you think about throwing in 1-3 singles w/ slingshot, using current e1RM weight, on the heavy day?

I'm stealing this for my own programming.

Okay...the slingshot is pretty awesome. I feel like it [god I hate myself for say this] primed my CNS or some shit...the follow-up non-slingshot TnG doubles with ~85% felt amazing. This was the final double

Nice! I'm going to try this on Friday.

[Hanley]

Nice! I'm going to try this on Friday.

What sort of total volume are you targeting with 85%?

I could have kept going after 10 total reps...but I think I would have opened the door to the door of fatigue management issues.

[CtMcBride]

@Hanley If I'm only willing to lift on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and/or Friday, would you just bench 2x per week?

[TimK]

Nice! I'm going to try this on Friday.

What sort of total volume are you targeting with 85%?

I could have kept going after 10 total reps...but I think I would have opened the door to the door of fatigue management issues.

I was thinking of something like:

1x85%
1x90%
1-3x100% (w/slingshot, up to three singles if it's feeling good)
~10 reps at 85% (start with doubles, finish with a couple singles if need be)

That would give me 15 reps with 85%+ if I do three slingshot singles. Seem reasonable?

[Hanley]

@Hanley If I'm only willing to lift on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and/or Friday, would you just bench 2x per week?

Yup. And do the 85%+ session on Thursday/Friday. For a basic 4 week cycle maybe:

week 1
session 1: 8-11 sets of 7 with 65%
session 2 7-10 sets of 5 with 70%

week 2
session 1: 8-11 sets of 7 with slight bump in week 1's load
session 2: 8-12 reps with ~85% in singles and/or doubles

week 3:
session 1: 8-11 sets of 7 with slight bump in week 2's load
session 2: 7-10 sets of 5 with ~1.5-2% bump in week 1's load

Week 4:
session 1: either the 65% or 70% format (up to you)
session 2: bunch of heavy-ass singles (maybe a PR attempt thrown in)

^ intraset fatigue is so damned low that load increments don't need to be super fussy...maybe just do 2.5# jumps? I'm in lifetime PR territory and still just doing a simple session-to-session linear progression of ~2kgs. Dead simple.

Edit: just a heads-up: feedback from a few initial guinea pigs participant-friends is that the 65% sessions seem to be way more fatiguing than the 70%. I'm guessing that's a function of relatively un/undertrained trained glycolytic systems. In my n=1 experience, though, work capacity at 65% increases super quickly.