Experiments in High-Volume, Low-Fatigue Bench Programming (more "Montana Method" nonsense)

[Austin]

While you were making these programming changes to your SBD approach, has your accessory training changed much? This is another variable I am curious about.

Yes, I wasn't really doing accessory work in the past. I was training 4 days per week, doing "big" lifts or close variations during each session.

You can see how I've now separated those heavier exposures a bit more, and have spread things out across 6 days. Having a home gym I can easily pop into, even if late at night after work for the quick accessory sessions, makes that more feasible of course.

I'm gonna try the 2.0 version he posted for squats and deads.

Thanks @Austin (I have no idea why I can't tag you)

Nice. Interested to see how it goes!

[GrainsAndGains]

I had also asked about this approach a couple of years ago. Volumes seem not-so-crazy, but load & RPE are quite low. Here's the post where he describes the basic cycle:

Goddamnit. I was going to deconstruct your deadlift cycle leading up to your 720 pull...but no log.

Some general questions:
1) were you using velocity cut-offs to determine reps-per-set...or did you use qualitative cut-offs?
2) what did you use for total pull-session volume? how did you ballpark that total session volume?
3) was intersession-rest fixed/variable? Variable within a range?

^ I think these are tricky elements* of a "high-peak-force-reps/low-fatigue program", so just curious how you addressed these issues.

* traditional "standards of measurement" in terms of stress/stimulus/fatigue simply aren't applicable IME.

1) More qualitative cutoffs, and using percentages of e1RM where a particular rep range would by definition be low-RPE

2) Pulling volume didn't change drastically throughout the training cycle. Ballparked based on my feels & prior training history, I suppose

3) My training schedule / intersession rest has been fixed for years, as I *really* don't like moving training around. A session might get moved backwards or forwards by a day depending on hospital call or travel schedule, but this is uncommon.

I deadlifted twice per week (as I have for years). The "main" comp DL day was also set up similarly to how I've trained for a long time, with minor adjustments. The bigger change compared to past training was using a similar setup on the supplemental deadlift day - this previously would have been higher-effort work, like ramping sets up to @8-9 with 5-10% backoffs. I'd hit some relatively big numbers on these like 575 x 4 beltless paused DL, 635 beltless deficit deadlift ... but I suspect the fatigue cost was too high.

The prior training cycle involved ramping 5s until the effort/fatigue got too high (pulled 606 x 5 at the end of it), then immediately transitioned right into something the looked more like:

Day 1: Comp SQ

Day 2: Comp DL 2 @ 7, 75% x 3 reps x 1-2 sets, 70% x 4-5 reps x 2-4 sets. This worked from 280 kg x 2 up through 295 kg x 2, then in the last two weeks I pulled 300 kg x 1, then 312.5 kg x 1 prior to the PR.

Day 3: Supp SQ (pin/paused)

Day 4: Supp DL (paused or deficit): 1 @ 6-7, then backoffs. These started at 4-5 sets of 6 @ 6-7, then gradually decreased to the last week, which was 5 sets of 3 @ <6

There are still some things I'd like to experiment with here, though.

Hope this helps.

Hey guys, happy to discuss. I will say that my deadlifts have made even better progress this past year than they did with that particular approach. Current training has looked like this:

M:
Squat / Bench / Sumo deadlift: 1 @ 7-8, -25% x 3 reps x 5 sets

T + W: Lots of light accessory stuff, some benching. These tend to be short sessions both days.

R: Conventional deadlift: 1 @ 7-8, -25% x 4 reps x 5 sets, bench, other accessories

F: Squat, accessories

Sa: Light RDLs for 3-4 sets of 10 (usually in the range of 315-345 lbs), bench, accessories

Su: off

Squat work has typically looked similar to the deadlifting; top single (high bar or low bar), -25% or so for 4-5 sets of 3-4 reps on both days. This took me to 600 on both high bar and low bar, before my quad tendon got a bit sensitive (which I've dealt with intermittently for years). Accessories include lots of lat pulldowns, single-leg RDLs, light good mornings, split squats, arm work. Bench/upper body training varies depending on how my elbows feel.

I adjust working loads based on whatever is there on a given day, which can fluctuate significantly based on hospital demands/other life/work stressors, but I've seen my "bottom end" strength increase to the point where a top deadlift single (either sumo or conventional) on an "average" day typically ranges from 650-680 lbs. 640 or less is a "down" day, and 690 or more is a "stronger" day, at least currently. Haven't taken a full deload week in a very, very long time with this approach.

What's your rationale for training both conventional and sumo as primary lifts? Do you think the average trainee could benefit from doing both, or is this a deliberate choice aimed at addressing a weakness you've identified? Or is it more about fatigue management?

[quikky]

While you were making these programming changes to your SBD approach, has your accessory training changed much? This is another variable I am curious about.

Yes, I wasn't really doing accessory work in the past. I was training 4 days per week, doing "big" lifts or close variations during each session.

You can see how I've now separated those heavier exposures a bit more, and have spread things out across 6 days. Having a home gym I can easily pop into, even if late at night after work for the quick accessory sessions, makes that more feasible of course.

Interesting. This is something that has been bouncing in my head for a while now. Specifically, managing the fatigue aspect of the big lifts, squats and deads especially, while getting a good stimulus. It appears that in your case two variables have changed lately: the fatigue for SBD has gone down due to lower RPE across the board, while you added additional stimulus via accessories. I wonder if it's the fresher/higher force SBD work that has lead to the improvements, or the better stimulus to fatigue ratio (assumption) attained by reducing the intensity of high fatigue lifts while adding more work via lower fatigue accessories. It almost seems you went from pure strength work to more powerbuilding type of structure and have seen better results. I am very curious in the root cause here.

[GrainsAndGains]

has your thinking changed on work done at that intensity?

Yeah. I don't see much value in the second rep of a double @ 5RM/85% because
1) most folks are getting 100% recruitment at 85%/5RM
2) The second reps are actually quite fatiguing over the course of the session and they limit total session rep count
3) I don't think that second rep in a double is very good practice for mechanics/aggression, etc (if you want RPE 7-9 reps, just do heavy singles).

^ For loads over 80%/8RM, I really like a timed session format. I'll warmup really well, then set a timer for ~20 mins and crank out singles, resting long enough to keep RPEs in check and mechanics really clean.

Thanks. What do you as the value of the super light, low fatigue session @ 15RM? Is it just work capacity and reinforcement of good mechanics?

60-80 reps @ ~15RM in sets of 5-8 (work capacity)
40-60 reps @ ~12RM in sets of 4-5 (hypertrophy/work capacity)
30-36 reps @ ~10RM in sets of 2-3 (strength/hypertrophy)
20-25 reps @ ~8RM in sets of 1-2 (strength/neuro)

[janoycresva]

I had also asked about this approach a couple of years ago. Volumes seem not-so-crazy, but load & RPE are quite low. Here's the post where he describes the basic cycle:

Goddamnit. I was going to deconstruct your deadlift cycle leading up to your 720 pull...but no log.

Some general questions:
1) were you using velocity cut-offs to determine reps-per-set...or did you use qualitative cut-offs?
2) what did you use for total pull-session volume? how did you ballpark that total session volume?
3) was intersession-rest fixed/variable? Variable within a range?

^ I think these are tricky elements* of a "high-peak-force-reps/low-fatigue program", so just curious how you addressed these issues.

* traditional "standards of measurement" in terms of stress/stimulus/fatigue simply aren't applicable IME.

1) More qualitative cutoffs, and using percentages of e1RM where a particular rep range would by definition be low-RPE

2) Pulling volume didn't change drastically throughout the training cycle. Ballparked based on my feels & prior training history, I suppose

3) My training schedule / intersession rest has been fixed for years, as I *really* don't like moving training around. A session might get moved backwards or forwards by a day depending on hospital call or travel schedule, but this is uncommon.

I deadlifted twice per week (as I have for years). The "main" comp DL day was also set up similarly to how I've trained for a long time, with minor adjustments. The bigger change compared to past training was using a similar setup on the supplemental deadlift day - this previously would have been higher-effort work, like ramping sets up to @8-9 with 5-10% backoffs. I'd hit some relatively big numbers on these like 575 x 4 beltless paused DL, 635 beltless deficit deadlift ... but I suspect the fatigue cost was too high.

The prior training cycle involved ramping 5s until the effort/fatigue got too high (pulled 606 x 5 at the end of it), then immediately transitioned right into something the looked more like:

Day 1: Comp SQ

Day 2: Comp DL 2 @ 7, 75% x 3 reps x 1-2 sets, 70% x 4-5 reps x 2-4 sets. This worked from 280 kg x 2 up through 295 kg x 2, then in the last two weeks I pulled 300 kg x 1, then 312.5 kg x 1 prior to the PR.

Day 3: Supp SQ (pin/paused)

Day 4: Supp DL (paused or deficit): 1 @ 6-7, then backoffs. These started at 4-5 sets of 6 @ 6-7, then gradually decreased to the last week, which was 5 sets of 3 @ <6

There are still some things I'd like to experiment with here, though.

Hope this helps.

Hey guys, happy to discuss. I will say that my deadlifts have made even better progress this past year than they did with that particular approach. Current training has looked like this:

M:
Squat / Bench / Sumo deadlift: 1 @ 7-8, -25% x 3 reps x 5 sets

T + W: Lots of light accessory stuff, some benching. These tend to be short sessions both days.

R: Conventional deadlift: 1 @ 7-8, -25% x 4 reps x 5 sets, bench, other accessories

F: Squat, accessories

Sa: Light RDLs for 3-4 sets of 10 (usually in the range of 315-345 lbs), bench, accessories

Su: off

Squat work has typically looked similar to the deadlifting; top single (high bar or low bar), -25% or so for 4-5 sets of 3-4 reps on both days. This took me to 600 on both high bar and low bar, before my quad tendon got a bit sensitive (which I've dealt with intermittently for years). Accessories include lots of lat pulldowns, single-leg RDLs, light good mornings, split squats, arm work. Bench/upper body training varies depending on how my elbows feel.

I adjust working loads based on whatever is there on a given day, which can fluctuate significantly based on hospital demands/other life/work stressors, but I've seen my "bottom end" strength increase to the point where a top deadlift single (either sumo or conventional) on an "average" day typically ranges from 650-680 lbs. 640 or less is a "down" day, and 690 or more is a "stronger" day, at least currently. Haven't taken a full deload week in a very, very long time with this approach.

I think I’m going to try this, I’ve been getting eaten alive by 5x/week AMRAPs on lower body lifts. What did your bench programming on the light days look like?

Thanks for the pain science content you guys put out, it was very helpful when I had some long term low back/glute pain a couple years back.

[Hanley]

has your thinking changed on work done at that intensity?

Yeah. I don't see much value in the second rep of a double @ 5RM/85% because
1) most folks are getting 100% recruitment at 85%/5RM
2) The second reps are actually quite fatiguing over the course of the session and they limit total session rep count
3) I don't think that second rep in a double is very good practice for mechanics/aggression, etc (if you want RPE 7-9 reps, just do heavy singles).

^ For loads over 80%/8RM, I really like a timed session format. I'll warmup really well, then set a timer for ~20 mins and crank out singles, resting long enough to keep RPEs in check and mechanics really clean.

Thanks. What do you as the value of the super light, low fatigue session @ 15RM?

There's utility value: super light, low fatigue work is something I CAN do when I'm fatigued. And it's low cost in terms of inducing fatigue.

I don't think this load range is inherently better than other intensities for hypertrophy and strength. But - given a state of reduced readiness / high-fatigue - I think it's perhaps the best/most-useful loading range.

I'm very much in support of matching session design to real-time readiness states (autoregulation of the cycle itself).

###

In terms of stimulus and physiology, the honest answer is I don't know what's going on. And I haven't touched the literature on this in about 2 years.

I'm VERY confident these loads transfer to 1RM (for me). But any justification beyond "because it transfers to my 1RM" is speculation.

I DO think 65-70% (15-12RM for most folks) is a sort of goldilocks zone in terms of bar speed: 1) the bar moves fast enough so peak transient force is VERY high, but 2) load is heavy enough (and bar slow enough) that the contraction velocity is still really, really slow compared to max contraction velocity (so concerns about actin-myosin crossbridging are (kinda) moot).

^ This loading range definitely doesn't work for some folks. I think folks with lots of lifting experience and/or athletic backgrounds tend to get better transfer from light loads to 1RM (just better at accelerating shit).

###

TL;DR: I think low-load, low-fatigue (but high peak force/power) is almost as good as traditional hypertrophy formats for hypertrophy, but far superior for transfer to 1RM (given the athlete is effective at recruiting muscle absent high external load).

[Austin]

What's your rationale for training both conventional and sumo as primary lifts? Do you think the average trainee could benefit from doing both, or is this a deliberate choice aimed at addressing a weakness you've identified? Or is it more about fatigue management?

I think there are multiple benefits of variation, even for "average" trainees. I also just enjoy getting better at both / being able to do both. I've also been curious whether, with more dedicated training, my sumo would surpass my conventional.

Interesting. This is something that has been bouncing in my head for a while now. Specifically, managing the fatigue aspect of the big lifts, squats and deads especially, while getting a good stimulus. It appears that in your case two variables have changed lately: the fatigue for SBD has gone down due to lower RPE across the board, while you added additional stimulus via accessories. I wonder if it's the fresher/higher force SBD work that has lead to the improvements, or the better stimulus to fatigue ratio (assumption) attained by reducing the intensity of high fatigue lifts while adding more work via lower fatigue accessories. It almost seems you went from pure strength work to more powerbuilding type of structure and have seen better results. I am very curious in the root cause here.

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. If I had to guess which made the bigger contribution, I'd say the changes to distribution and fatigue of the "primary" work, with less coming from the accessory work. This is mainly because I keep the accessory stuff quite light, and don't really push its progression very much. Just a guess.

I think I’m going to try this, I’ve been getting eaten alive by 5x/week AMRAPs on lower body lifts. What did your bench programming on the light days look like?

Thanks for the pain science content you guys put out, it was very helpful when I had some long term low back/glute pain a couple years back.

Bench was typically reverse-grip on Monday (1@8, ~76-78% x 2-3 reps x 6-8 sets), regular "comp" grip on Thursday (1@8, 70-72% x 3-4 reps x 5-6 sets), Swiss/multi-grip bar bench Saturday (6-8 reps @ 6-7 RPE x 4 sets), then light overhead pressing and tricep extensions scattered throughout the week. This led to a 407 lb reverse-grip bench PR, and got my comp bench back to prior PR territory.

I DO think 65-70% (15-12RM for most folks) is a sort of goldilocks zone in terms of bar speed: 1) the bar moves fast enough so peak transient force is VERY high, but 2) load is heavy enough (and bar slow enough) that the contraction velocity is still really, really slow compared to max contraction velocity (so concerns about actin-myosin crossbridging are (kinda) moot).

^ This loading range definitely doesn't work for some folks. I think folks with lots of lifting experience and/or athletic backgrounds tend to get better transfer from light loads to 1RM (just better at accelerating shit).

Yep, this seems plausible to me.

[KarlM]

@Austin,

M:
Squat / Bench / Sumo deadlift: 1 @ 7-8, -25% x 3 reps x 5 sets

Does this mean you take 25% off your e1RM calculated from the single, or does it mean you take 25% off of the heavy single? Thanks!

[Austin]

Does this mean you take 25% off your e1RM calculated from the single, or does it mean you take 25% off of the heavy single? Thanks!

25% off the actual single. If the single was on the harder side or a slight overshoot, I'll typically "round down" a bit more on top of that. Today was 705 for the top single and 520 for sets, for example.

[DPriest442]

Does this mean you take 25% off your e1RM calculated from the single, or does it mean you take 25% off of the heavy single? Thanks!

25% off the actual single. If the single was on the harder side or a slight overshoot, I'll typically "round down" a bit more on top of that. Today was 705 for the top single and 520 for sets, for example.

705 for a single @ 7/8? You gonna pull 800 soon?

[JeanLannes]

25% off the actual single. If the single was on the harder side or a slight overshoot, I'll typically "round down" a bit more on top of that. Today was 705 for the top single and 520 for sets, for example.

Do you think there's any meaningful benefit from doing the heavy deadlifts separated from the heaviest squats like you're doing now, compared to the general BBM 4 day set up that has comp squats and deadlifts on Monday/Tuesday?