Barbell Medicine's 12 Week Strength - Question regarding the backoff load

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

Hi all,

I am getting ready to enter a strength mesocycle and have decided to use a template rather than building my own program this time around. I have chosen Barbell Medicine's 12 Strength Template. It seems like a nicely designed program and I am hoping to make good gains on it, but there is one thing that seems a bit odd to me and I was looking for input from people who have either run the program or have a good amount of intermediate programming experience.

This is specifically regarding the early weeks in the program. For the competition lifts, they have programmed it so that you start with an opening single @RPE 8 (~90% 1RM) and then do 5 sets of 5 at a 20% reduction from the opening single. Over the first 7 weeks the intensity of the worksets are increased, so that you are eventually performing sets at -15%. If I were to follow this prescription, this would put my workset intensity and total tonnage well below what I have been training with during my recent hypertrophy cycle; this is most pronounced for squat.

Here is what my first and final week looked like for my last cycle:
Week 1
Weight: 260, 205, 205, 205
Reps: 1, 7, 8, 8
RPE: 8.5, 7.5, 7.5, 7.5
Total Tonnage: 4975

Week 6 - last week of the cycle
Weight: 265 230 230 230 230 210
RPE: 9, 8, 9, 9, 9, 8,
Reps: 1, 6, 7, 7, 7, 5,
Total Tonnage: 7525 - I should note that my RPE on the opening single here was higher than the recent weeks - I think fatigue was setting in at this point and it was starting to affect my performance.


If I follow BBM's prescription for squat, here is what it would theoretically look like:
Week 1
Weight: 255, 200, 200, 200, 200, 200
Reps: 1, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
RPE: 8, X, X, X, X, X
Total Tonnage: 5000

Week 7
Weight: 290, 250, 250, 250, 250
Reps: 1, 4, 4, 4, 4
RPE: 8, X, X, X, X
Total Tonnage: 4000
This is assuming a fairly giant gain in my empirical 1RM.

In the very best case scenario, assuming (rather unrealistically) that I can put 5#s on my opening single weekly, my final intensity and my final volume is not very impressive. My previous rep max at 255#, was sets of 3 @9, so assuming I actually hit 290# @8 250#x3 doesn't seem like it would be sufficiently matched volume improvement. For additional context, my empirical 1RM on squat is 280#, which I successfully hit the week before my last meet at an easy RPE 9.

Anyhow, I really like the design of this program, but I am concerned that were I to implement the prescribed intensity and total volume for the worksets, I would actually end up detraining. I was thinking of maybe following the program, but starting with a -15% reduction for the work sets and bringing that up to a -10% reduction for week 7. Is this a bad idea? I am open to other suggestions.

Related to this dilema, I am curious what other people think about the following idea. Is it possible that I am a little aberrant relative to the norm in that I can perform higher volume closer to my 1RM without it feeling too difficult? It is hard for me to put this idea into words, but I get the impression that the range of weights at which I perform @9-10 is significantly tighter than the range of weights that I can perform @8-9. Maybe this is normal....

[Murelli]

I would just run the program and see where I would end up.

Regarding your RPE to 1RM relation, you can always build a custom RPE chart before doing the program to see if you can change the prescribed % and keep the same expected RPE.

[cgeorg]

It has been thrown around (and I think @chromoly has brought up that it is the case for her) that women tend to have smaller differences between 1RM and volume rep maxes. If indeed that is the case, changing the % load drop to 50-75% of what it should be might get you closer. Perhaps, as you mentioned, going from -15% to -10% over the course of the cycle. Has anyone heard about a different RPE chart that takes these differences into account? If it existed, it would be pretty easy to map the percent drop from the "standard" RTS one to the "good at volume" one.

It also looks like the program is intentionally built to keep you away from the levels of RPEs you're currently hitting in training. Similar to the experiment Hanley is running on everyone right now.

Is it just 1 squat day a week in this template?

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

I would just run the program and see where I would end up.

Regarding your RPE to 1RM relation, you can always build a custom RPE chart before doing the program to see if you can change the prescribed % and keep the same expected RPE.

I don't want to waste 12 weeks and It seems likely for me to significantly detrain over this period. How can I be expected to make gains using less volume and intensity than I have been using for the past few months? IDK

It has been thrown around (and I think @chromoly has brought up that it is the case for her) that women tend to have smaller differences between 1RM and volume rep maxes. If indeed that is the case, changing the % load drop to 50-75% of what it should be might get you closer. Perhaps, as you mentioned, going from -15% to -10% over the course of the cycle. Has anyone heard about a different RPE chart that takes these differences into account? If it existed, it would be pretty easy to map the percent drop from the "standard" RTS one to the "good at volume" one.

It also looks like the program is intentionally built to keep you away from the levels of RPEs you're currently hitting in training. Similar to the experiment Hanley is running on everyone right now.

Is it just 1 squat day a week in this template?

It did occur to me that this program might be designed to keep fatigue very low, but it seems like there is a balance I would need to strike between stimulating gain and fatigue management that the program as prescribed would not hit - for me....

Squatting 3X a week; 1 comp, 2 sup.

[cgeorg]

What do the sup lifts look like? Can you link to the program or is it paid? What was your full squat week like during your last cycle?

[tdood]

I don't think you'll detrain. Maintain your weight and you won't lose muscle mass, and a single @8 should maintain strength. Track your e1rm. See what happens week to week. Perhaps you'll do better than your estimated 5 lbs.

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

What do the sup lifts look like? Can you link to the program or is it paid? What was your full squat week like during your last cycle?

It is paid. I think I know where you are going with this... the total volume including the supplemental lifts is fairly high - at least initially and I have not compared the how the total tonnage would compare to my recent training. I'll figure that out and respond shortly, this might be where they make up the bulk of the load....

[ChasingCurls69]

The supplementary squat volume/tonnage would be grouped with the comp squat volume/tonnage when comparing programs, not just the comp squat day for each program. And programming might not necessarily always be at the same tonnage when going from hypertrophy phases to strength phases, but training volume will increase for both over time. For The Bridge 2.0 it was similar with 21~ comp reps a week but a lot more volume from the supplemental lifts.

[thejosef]

It is paid. I think I know where you are going with this... the total volume including the supplemental lifts is fairly high - at least initially and I have not compared the how the total tonnage would compare to my recent training. I'll figure that out and respond shortly, this might be where they make up the bulk of the load....

Yeah I think you'll see that the supplemental squat lifts make up the difference.

I'm on week 6 now of the BBM 12 week program and I'm really enjoying it. I'm trying to run it as written even though 3-0-3 tempo squats are the devil. My e1RM is steadily rising on all three main lifts.. so that's fun to see. I've never done a program working up to a single and then backing off for volume, but it is very appealing to me.

Best of luck with the new program!

[Murelli]

Definitely build your own RPE chart and adjust percentages.

Another option is asking the BBM folks directly in their forum if women should use different percentages.

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

Yeah I think you'll see that the supplemental squat lifts make up the difference.

I'm on week 6 now of the BBM 12 week program and I'm really enjoying it. I'm trying to run it as written even though 3-0-3 tempo squats are the devil. My e1RM is steadily rising on all three main lifts.. so that's fun to see. I've never done a program working up to a single and then backing off for volume, but it is very appealing to me.

Best of luck with the new program!

So, I looked at the total squat volume and plugging in conservative weights for week 1 of the program results in a the total tonnage that will be higher than my total squat tonnage from the last week of my recent hypertrophy cycle. I had underestimated how huge an effect 5 sets of 10 for the supplemental lifts would have on total tonnage, even with low weights - hahah ! Feeling much safer to proceed without modifying the program at all.

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

Definitely build your own RPE chart and adjust percentages.

Another option is asking the BBM folks directly in their forum if women should use different percentages.

Good idea, but now that I have looked more carefully at the total tonnage including supplemental lifts and it is a lot more than I had estimated, so I am not concerned about detraining. - Thank you all for indulging me!

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

The supplementary squat volume/tonnage would be grouped with the comp squat volume/tonnage when comparing programs, not just the comp squat day for each program. And programming might not necessarily always be at the same tonnage when going from hypertrophy phases to strength phases, but training volume will increase for both over time. For The Bridge 2.0 it was similar with 21~ comp reps a week but a lot more volume from the supplemental lifts.

Yeah, I totally underestimated the contribution of the supplemental lifts, which now that I have calculated it, is huge.

[ChasingCurls69]

Yeah, in The Bridge v2 it's something like 50 reps of beltless squats in one workout, 21 reps of comp squat, and 25 reps of pause squats during the highest volume weeks. I'd imagine the 12 week is similar in that regard.

[cgeorg]

Sounds good - post a review when you've done a cycle or two?

[DoubleBreastedAmazon]

Sounds good - post a review when you've done a cycle or two?

Definitely!

[hegger80]

So what does BBM suggest you do when you run out your 5's? It seems people are very upset with Rippetoe's philosophy as compared to BBM's but in PPST he (and Baker) suggest switching to 3's and then to 1's before you fail at the aforementioned 5's and 3's (which requires a bit of RPE on the fly to determine you are about to fail to get a set of 5's or 3's) and then start over at 5's before you fail at the 1's, with a bit more than you started the 5's with before. I'm just curious what big huge difference BBM has with how to sustain progress. Thanks in advance and good luck with your training.

[damufunman]

So what does BBM suggest you do when you run out your 5's? It seems people are very upset with Rippetoe's philosophy as compared to BBM's but in PPST he (and Baker) suggest switching to 3's and then to 1's before you fail at the aforementioned 5's and 3's (which requires a bit of RPE on the fly to determine you are about to fail to get a set of 5's or 3's) and then start over at 5's before you fail at the 1's, with a bit more than you started the 5's with before. I'm just curious what big huge difference BBM has with how to sustain progress. Thanks in advance and good luck with your training.

Not intimately familiar with BBM's stuff, but generally with RPE based programs you will work up to the prescribed RPE (increase weight gradually until you reach the correct RPE) and either stay at that weight or adjust weight for the next set. Basically this adjusting to hit a target RPE means you shouldn't ever fail a rep since @10 is nearly never prescribed. If the program is working your x5@8 (for example) goes up and that's how progress is made.

[hegger80]

Gotcha, so it's basically a constantly evolving cycle based on that day's RPE. So really there never is a reset. So if you do 1@8 and then -20% and 5x5, that could go on forever because it's not about the weight going up, it's about the RPE staying @8 for that first rep? Man, that's interesting to me. Thanks for making it clear, seriously. I might play with that. I guess after a while if the weight isn't going up you would know it's not working for you but workout to workout the weight not going up doesn't matter. Cool.

[Manveer]

Gotcha, so it's basically a constantly evolving cycle based on that day's RPE. So really there never is a reset. So if you do 1@8 and then -20% and 5x5, that could go on forever because it's not about the weight going up, it's about the RPE staying @8 for that first rep? Man, that's interesting to me. Thanks for making it clear, seriously. I might play with that. I guess after a while if the weight isn't going up you would know it's not working for you but workout to workout the weight not going up doesn't matter. Cool.

The RTS implementation is to track e1RM weekly on competition lifts. If you don’t see an upward trend after 3-4 weeks, there needs to be an adjustment to programming. You always have a forward lean with target weights for each workout. Add weight when possible.