American WL coaches don't care about strength?

[Manveer]

Was watching this earlier today and thought of Rip saying American WL coaches don't value strength or whatever. I know these are just two WL coaches talking, but Broz is one of the best, right? Seems he doesn't think you can be too strong. Maybe this anecdote is demonstrating Rip's point, but I don't know what the majority of American WL coaches think. @mbasic



(link should be time stamped to ~38 mins)

[mbasic]

yep.
all of usaw and all the american coaches don't value strength whatsoever.
that mantra permeates the whole weightlifting scene in the US.
i myself have been doing the "don't get your legs too strong" thing and it is working out quite nicely.

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funny, later on in the video the Broz coach uses the words "strength imbalances" with regards to strength.
"Pat benched 450 in highschool, so we need to OFFSET some of that strengths in other ways".
"Some of those things [imbalances] take years to fix"
So I guess here, I guess being too strong is a bad thing,

I would like to know/see:
- the coach who said the thing about the one lifter's "legs being too strong",
- the lifter being discussed
- and video of the lifts this coach saw to prompt him to make this comment.

[mbasic]

Side Note:
Things get taken out of context real quickly.
Funny, like the thread in Egypt, where "Strength is rarely the limiting factor in the snatch"--Max Aita.
Rip and lap dogs started to shout this ^ down.
Max wasn't saying strength wasn't important,
but most failed SN attempts usually the result of a technique breakdown: forward, backward, lifter doesn't stay over the bar long enough, blah blah blah. People miss openers, and 2nd attempts all the time, and its not because they weren't strong enough (at that time).
The post they robbed that quote from was about a lifter doing something funny with her arms/wrist in the catch IIRC.

So context is everything
(don't let that "lifters leg's get too strong")
(maybe "legs get too much stronger than his back" what was said about a short legged/long torso lifter with a weak looking pull)
(we don't know context)
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2nd site note:
I also find it funny Max has been thru some extensive Bulgarian training himself, from Abadjiev directly.
And it would SEEM he doesn't really program his lifters that way, or use, or endorse those methods.
When discussing programming, it seems he's into periodzation more so than the max-erry-day approach.
So I guess he doesn't see the value of the Bulgarian Method in this country.

I like how Abadjiev methods and knowledge is embraced is PPBBT3 on the SS boards, (and Louie Simmons too LOL).
That guy has never produced a clean lifter in his whole life.
Most of the remnants of his coaching tree went on to be hired by other countries, they all got destroyed by WADA as well.
So what kinda of data or knowledge does that bring to the programming table? zippo

I like the Hysen Pulaku thread, "oh look! student of Abadjiev here in America" . . . kid gets popped months later. (19 y.o. kid btw).
https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... fting.html
http://nocalbania.org/wp-content/upload ... Pulaku.pdf
(and a 2nd ban two years later, he can't lift again until 2022)
And all the old Jim Moser threads/article lawding this coach. . . .
And its not like any of this was a big surprise, or things got revealed after the fact.
https://wlift84.wordpress.com/2016/05/1 ... -timeline/

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.
I mean everything works to a degree, and you can incorportate some concepts here or there. . . .
. . . but these two "gurus" programs revolve around PEDs.
I mean you take ideas away from Coleman etal also I guess . . . but to what end?

Rule7 ? come at me bro

[augeleven]

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

[Murelli]

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

Which in turn brings something from the back of my mind. @JordanFeigenbaum once mentioned that "enhanced" lifters would need less protein than "unenhanced" people. I wonder if they would be able to make more progress on less volume too...

[Manveer]

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

Which in turn brings something from the back of my mind. @JordanFeigenbaum once mentioned that "enhanced" lifters would need less protein than "unenhanced" people. I wonder if they would be able to make more progress on less volume too...

Yeah, for sure they can.

That’s why you can’t say “my strength heroes did xyz” looking at guys like Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and think you can do that yourself with good results. They had massive amounts of drugs in addition to great genetics.

[Murelli]

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

Which in turn brings something from the back of my mind. @JordanFeigenbaum once mentioned that "enhanced" lifters would need less protein than "unenhanced" people. I wonder if they would be able to make more progress on less volume too...

Yeah, for sure they can.

That’s why you can’t say “my strength heroes did xyz” looking at guys like Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and think you can do that yourself with good results. They had massive amounts of drugs in addition to great genetics.

I wonder if a lifter doing a certain peaking program named after one of the 50 United States of America could get progress with certain pharmaceutical aid.

Rule 7 does not apply since I'm not accusing anyone.

[GrizzlyAdam]

I wonder if a lifter doing a certain peaking program named after one of the 50 United States of America could get progress with certain pharmaceutical aid.

That seems to be implied in a lot the "old-school" training philosophy. You grind your ass off, push the weight up, and eat like hell to make that process last as long as possible. At some point it stops working, so you "do what you have to do", go back to grinding, and it works again.

Guys who don't want to "supplement" have to find another way. Thankfully, other ways are far more accessible now than 40 years ago.

[mbasic]

Fun fact:. When I was a koolaides drinker...I down loaded some Oly programs from a popular WL coach.

Back then, I always thought the percentages we're too low for squats. A lot of 5x5 , 4x5 stuff at low 70%ish. That was on top of all the other crap you were doing....
Pulls, etc

I thought it sounded a little pussyish (back then).

As I go back from and look at those programs now, they seems pretty reasonable.
(more volume at lower weights; only occasionally going into 80-90 with some triples;)

They would have a peaking phase with some heavier days/waves of course . But most of it is in line with the current thinking about sustainable higher volumes at reasonable intensities.

I never did those programs...because I was an idiot.

I feel bad for me

[Les]

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

Which in turn brings something from the back of my mind. @JordanFeigenbaum once mentioned that "enhanced" lifters would need less protein than "unenhanced" people. I wonder if they would be able to make more progress on less volume too...

Yeah, for sure they can.

That’s why you can’t say “my strength heroes did xyz” looking at guys like Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and think you can do that yourself with good results. They had massive amounts of drugs in addition to great genetics.

John Kuc was very open about it. Maybe it was still legal back then or maybe he just didn't want to lie about it. But when he was asked how he kept pushing his squat and deadlift up to 900#, he just said he took more "sauce." So his training stayed about the same, but he ate his way to SHW and added drugs to keep the progression going. Of course he had great genetics too, because there are guys who could try this method and stall out way earlier.

[MPhelps]

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

Which in turn brings something from the back of my mind. @JordanFeigenbaum once mentioned that "enhanced" lifters would need less protein than "unenhanced" people. I wonder if they would be able to make more progress on less volume too...

Yeah, for sure they can.

That’s why you can’t say “my strength heroes did xyz” looking at guys like Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and think you can do that yourself with good results. They had massive amounts of drugs in addition to great genetics.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I can't seem to find a program that works to make PRs. Most Olympic lifting programs are based on Russian, Bulgarian, or Chinese programs. High intensity low volume or high volume percentage based programs. From countries that are all #band. Then we have our supposedly clean western athletes, who also seem to get popped as well. There's at least 4 lifters in Cal Strength YouTube videos that have been popped. Broz has Mendes who was popped. So my point is, who the fuck do I believe and is there really any program that works indefinitely without PEDs? This is rhetorical of course.

[MPhelps]

Fun fact:. When I was a koolaides drinker...I down loaded some Oly programs from a popular WL coach.

Back then, I always thought the percentages we're too low for squats. A lot of 5x5 , 4x5 stuff at low 70%ish. That was on top of all the other crap you were doing....
Pulls, etc

I thought it sounded a little pussyish (back then).

As I go back from and look at those programs now, they seems pretty reasonable.
(more volume at lower weights; only occasionally going into 80-90 with some triples;)

They would have a peaking phase with some heavier days/waves of course . But most of it is in line with the current thinking about sustainable higher volumes at reasonable intensities.

I never did those programs...because I was an idiot.

I feel bad for me

I just did a catalyst program with high volume and fairly low percentages. Squats in the range of 10,8,6,4 at around 70-85% and Snatch CJ weights up to around 80-90%. It really got me prepped to do squats and lifts in that range and totally unprepared for singles at or near max .

[DirtyRed]

The first thing mentioned in that video is a coach who thinks it's possible to make your legs too strong.

Probably the same idiot that coaches Matilda.

I doubt the Abadjiev/Simmons programming advice and/or concepts have much merit either in the context of natural lifter.

Rule7 ? come at me bro

mbasic brings up an interesting concern: Can we evaluate a training program without taking into context hyper-recovery methods?

Which in turn brings something from the back of my mind. @JordanFeigenbaum once mentioned that "enhanced" lifters would need less protein than "unenhanced" people. I wonder if they would be able to make more progress on less volume too...

Yeah, for sure they can.

That’s why you can’t say “my strength heroes did xyz” looking at guys like Ed Coan and Kirk Karwoski and think you can do that yourself with good results. They had massive amounts of drugs in addition to great genetics.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately as I can't seem to find a program that works to make PRs. Most Olympic lifting programs are based on Russian, Bulgarian, or Chinese programs. High intensity low volume or high volume percentage based programs. From countries that are all #band. Then we have our supposedly clean western athletes, who also seem to get popped as well. There's at least 4 lifters in Cal Strength YouTube videos that have been popped. Broz has Mendes who was popped. So my point is, who the fuck do I believe and is there really any program that works indefinitely without PEDs? This is rhetorical of course.

Obviously not, if for no other reason than you will die before "indefinitely" runs out.

Also, economically, the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns only holds in the "short term." "Short term" is defined as "not long term." "Long term" is defined as however long it takes for one to be able to change all inputs related to the given output.

It's probably not a PERFECT analogy if you really examine it, but if you aren't changing your hormonal profile, you're training in the "short term," and increasing other inputs (volume, sleep, whatever), is going to yield less and less marginal benefit.

[MPhelps]

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanWeight ... 60985570:0

Relevant. And from Rip's arch nemesis

[hector]

I've emailed with John Broz before and am a huge fan of his.

When I hit my all time squat PR (which is admittedly unimpressive) it was due to his programming.

Not sure if Broz gets into it in the interview posted, but he did say that there were periods where he had Mendez focus just on technique and not on strength. When it was clear that Mendez's strength wasn't his limiting factor, Broz would test Mendez's squat strength once a week. As long as it wasn't dropping, they just focused on technique. Again, this wasn't the entirety of Mendez's career, it was just for periods.

Broz is also, based on my super limited knowledge, extremely atypical among American coaches in his training philosophy when it comes to frequency.

[MPhelps]

@hector what kind of program did Broz have you do? Was it basically max out everyday? I set my best squat PR doing a squat everyday program from Catalyst.

[hector]

@hector what kind of program did Broz have you do? Was it basically max out everyday? I set my best squat PR doing a squat everyday program from Catalyst.

I wasn't officially his client, so I don't want to in any way connect my shitty numbers to his coaching (which, based on the youtube videos, interviews, and his writing I think is phenomenal).

I just found his philosophy and his programming suggestions online, followed them, and then reached out to him.

I was running some sort of shitty texas-ripoff template at the time, no RPE, but due to work I was missing sessions regularly. So I would follow the template to the extent I could but I might only lift every 3rd or 4th day. Needless to say, progress was going nowhere.

So I combined Broz's programming. On days where I couldn't do a full session, and had to be in and out of the gym in ~30 minutes, I would come in, work up to a single, then maybe do some lighter doubles, and call it a day.

My 5RM strength improved very little over this time. My 1RM has not been as high since.

So, yeah, just like you it was a squat every day program.

What was your squat every day program from Catalyst like? (EDIT: Just saw that you listed your program in an earlier post. Looks like your squat every day program was very different.)

It would have made a good peaking program. My form got A LOT better over this time.

[MPhelps]

After I did the Catalyst squat erry day program which ramped up to 10x6 squats and 10x5 front squats at 70%, followed by 6 weeks of tapering volume and higher intensity, I ended up doing something very similar to Broz's take on the Bulgarian System, basically, snatch, clean and jerk and front squat to a heavy single, every day, even Sunday. I skipped the back offs most of the time because I was so beat when I was done for the day. I got really good at hitting near-PRs every day, but I never set a new PR, and my technique would always just get worse and worse as the days went on, until I had to deload. Then I would keep adding weight until I hit near-PRs, rinse and repeat. It really didn't do anything for me, but workouts only lasted 30 to 45 minutes, warmups were quick and if I missed a day for some reason, it didn't screw up any timeline. You just did the same thing the next day.

[damufunman]

After I did the Catalyst squat erry day program which ramped up to 10x6 squats and 10x5 front squats at 70%, followed by 6 weeks of tapering volume and higher intensity, I ended up doing something very similar to Broz's take on the Bulgarian System, basically, snatch, clean and jerk and front squat to a heavy single, every day, even Sunday. I skipped the back offs most of the time because I was so beat when I was done for the day. I got really good at hitting near-PRs every day, but I never set a new PR, and my technique would always just get worse and worse as the days went on, until I had to deload. Then I would keep adding weight until I hit near-PRs, rinse and repeat. It really didn't do anything for me, but workouts only lasted 30 to 45 minutes, warmups were quick and if I missed a day for some reason, it didn't screw up any timeline. You just did the same thing the next day.

How did you manage 30 to 45 minutes maxing out Snatch, C&J, and Front Squats??? My max Snatch and C&J days only took me 2 hours! Teach me your ways.

[MPhelps]

I suck so the weights are really low. As in I can total as much as a 48 American at 94. Or I'd be really good if my weights were in kilos instead of pounds. Plus after snatch I went right into CJ and front squats with no warm up. So for example I'd work up to a 75 snatch. Then I'd do CJs at 85 and 95 then front squats at 115 and 140.