A Conjecture...

[mgil]

I was pondering when a trainee should start to grasp the concept of "effort" and "feels" coming from the standpoint of a rank novice lifter.

For the first 4-6 weeks of lifting, most of the work is adapting to the movement, muscle memory, skill, and resulting efficiency gains. That's why, in many cases, a person with little to no change in diet can make significant strength gains in that period of time.

So let's assume at 6 weeks, provided form isn't awful, that the trainee has a good idea of how to mechanically get through the motion. We're also assuming that the lifter chose starting weights appropriately as well as subsequent increments. Hopefully this has resulted in no missed lifts over that period of time.

For the next two to four weeks, the lifter should start getting into the RPE 9 range, but unknowingly. Things are starting to feel "hard".

Here's the idea: it's now a good time to do a small taper and then test each lift. Then the semi-novice (now) lifter can grasp the concept, physically, of what a maximum effort lift feels like.

So now, at approximately 12 weeks, the lifter has felt RPE 9 and 10 as well as 7 and 8 over the course of training if the "feels" are made cognizant, it would seem that the basis of understanding effort in each set is understood. For weeks 12-16, this would be the training goal, in that the lifter would go through some rep ranges to figure out the RPE in a few domains.

As a result, at week 16, the lifter should be well prepared to utilize the RTS methods going forward to monitor training progresss and get dosing dialed in.

Thoughts?

[Manveer]

How you feel is lies.

[Murelli]

So let's assume at 6 weeks, provided form isn't awful, that the trainee has a good idea of how to mechanically get through the motion. We're also assuming that the lifter chose starting weights appropriately as well as subsequent increments. Hopefully this has resulted in no missed lifts over that period of time.

For the next two to four weeks, the lifter should start getting into the RPE 9 range, but unknowingly. Things are starting to feel "hard".

Here's the idea: it's now a good time to do a small taper and then test each lift. Then the semi-novice (now) lifter can grasp the concept, physically, of what a maximum effort lift feels like.

So now, at approximately 12 weeks, the lifter has felt RPE 9 and 10 as well as 7 and 8 over the course of training if the "feels" are made cognizant, it would seem that the basis of understanding effort in each set is understood. For weeks 12-16, this would be the training goal, in that the lifter would go through some rep ranges to figure out the RPE in a few domains.

As a result, at week 16, the lifter should be well prepared to utilize the RTS methods good my forward to monitor training progresss and get dosing dialed in.

Thoughts?

I disagree with some of the assumptions, but being assumptions I will take them as true for the sake of discussion.

If I got your point right, from weeks 12-16 the logic is:
Since we are testing his 1RM, we might as well build his individual RPE tables for the 4 lifts, using RTS' proposed method of testing 4RM and 8RM after the 1RM. That will provide useful information because different people have different "distances" between their 1RM, 4RM and 8RM, because of neuromuscular efficiency (Hanley, halp).

In the context of RPE centered programming it is a great thing to have individual RPE charts that will allow the trainee to select the loads without a lot of hassle and without blunt recommendations like "add 5% to increase RPE by 1 - to be clear, this doesn't work for me).

Now my question is, what do you mean by "good my forward"?

And where exactly do you think the trainee's programming should go from there? Something like The Bridge?

[mgil]

Typo. Fixed.

Yeah, "The Bridge" is a decent program to do this with. HLM can work too with RPE tailoring.

Regarding the assumptions, if the trainee is selecting starting weights right, and keeping in touch with a coach, I don't find them unreasonable.

[Manveer]

More serious reply.

The scenario mgil is describing seems like it would only occur in situations where the trainee receives in-person coaching from day 1 (appropriate load selection, good form at 6 weeks). I think this is going to be pretty rare. It seems like an unnecessary risk to test 1RMs after 6 weeks of training. The trainee would need an experienced third party to select loads for 1RM attempts anyway, otherwise they would probably be too light.

Why not just keep getting stronger, do some really hard sets, fail some reps, and then figure out where the limit is. All the while, just record RPE even if it's going to be inaccurate without using it to select any loads.

Murelli, I haven't made custom RPE charts for each lift. The standard charts seem to work well for me, although maybe deadlifts are a little different in that I suck at higher reps. Just throwing that out there - although it seems like you've benefited from custom charts I don't think most people need to mess with that at such an early stage.

[mgil]

The hypothetical is certainly an ideal situation.

But it's illustrative: RPE ideas could be introduced at a fairly early stage at this point. Then, once they are employed, the trainee can begin tracking e1RM numbers to track high-level progress.

In context of training clients: at some point it's going to be difficult to keep putting weight on the bar. When programming becomes complex, how do you continue to motivate the lifter without grinding them into the ground? RPE would present itself as not only a good method of driving strength (specifically without microloading and balancing on a razor's edge of stress and recovery) but also one of being motivational as well.

Clearly this is counter to the idea of other schools of thought where the only meaningful measure of strength is simply the weight on the bar and programming should be simple arithmetic, even for intermediate trainees.

[Murelli]

Manveer, I was referring to the "add 5%" blunt recommendation, not the usual RPE chart. Sometimes the chart (I use the Workout Planner on the RTS Training Log) gets me 2.5% or less to increase RPE by 1 and it works just fine. I'm also weak, so there's that.

[Chebass88]

If we are talking about how to modify the starting Strength novice program to prepare a lifter for eventual ROE usage, here is what I would do:

Original program calls for 3 sets of five. I'd have the trainee do an AMRAP on the third and final set. At that point, they have some meat & potatoes work done, and get to test their strength (a fun thing) while learning how to rate RPE.
An AMRAP set is by definition @10 (as I understand it). The lifter will learn what the penultimate rep feels like (@9, as I understand it), how the second to last rep feels, and so on.

This also solves the problem of "how much of an increase do I make", making the increase dependent on the number of reps performed. For example, if the trainee could do 10+ reps, increase by 20lbs. If 7-10 reps, +10lbs increase. If 5-7 reps, +5lb increase. Or something similar.

The key is that the lifter is able to recognize how these reps feel and are able to stop the set once those RPEs are met. So when they should do a lift @8, they know they should stop two reps from "max"

[Murelli]

If we are talking about how to modify the starting Strength novice program to prepare a lifter for eventual ROE usage, here is what I would do:

Original program calls for 3 sets of five. I'd have the trainee do an AMRAP on the third and final set. At that point, they have some meat & potatoes work done, and get to test their strength (a fun thing) while learning how to rate RPE.
An AMRAP set is by definition @10 (as I understand it). The lifter will learn what the penultimate rep feels like (@9, as I understand it), how the second to last rep feels, and so on.

This also solves the problem of "how much of an increase do I make", making the increase dependent on the number of reps performed. For example, if the trainee could do 10+ reps, increase by 20lbs. If 7-10 reps, +10lbs increase. If 5-7 reps, +5lb increase. Or something similar.

The key is that the lifter is able to recognize how these reps feel and are able to stop the set once those RPEs are met. So when they should do a lift @8, they know they should stop two reps from "max"

Sheaffer called and he wants his program back.

[KOTJ]

I have a new intermediate I'm programming for, with no strength focused background, but a good actual bodybuilding background.

I had her do a bullshit mock meet to get a ballpark for maxes. I gave her 3-4 weeks to lead into it. I reviewed video of all her max attempts and helped pick numbers in real time.

The first several weeks were percentage based with RPE used for supplemental and assistance lifts. I transitioned the supplemental lifts to RPE after the assistance lifts.

This week will fully transition to RPE. I'll review lifts and help make weight selections in real time, if possible.

[mgil]

If we are talking about how to modify the starting Strength novice program to prepare a lifter for eventual ROE usage, here is what I would do:

Original program calls for 3 sets of five. I'd have the trainee do an AMRAP on the third and final set. At that point, they have some meat & potatoes work done, and get to test their strength (a fun thing) while learning how to rate RPE.
An AMRAP set is by definition @10 (as I understand it). The lifter will learn what the penultimate rep feels like (@9, as I understand it), how the second to last rep feels, and so on.

This also solves the problem of "how much of an increase do I make", making the increase dependent on the number of reps performed. For example, if the trainee could do 10+ reps, increase by 20lbs. If 7-10 reps, +10lbs increase. If 5-7 reps, +5lb increase. Or something similar.

The key is that the lifter is able to recognize how these reps feel and are able to stop the set once those RPEs are met. So when they should do a lift @8, they know they should stop two reps from "max"

I think this is a good idea, but not done every session. This would grind a lot of n00bs into the ground. It would probably also get them ramping up the weight on the bar too quickly (e.g. last set was 10 reps, increase 20lbs next session). But, if a third-party were involved, or an intelligent understanding of how the AMRAP is tied to recovery variables existed, then this would also allow a trainee to gain these "feels". Fairly quickly as well.

ALSO:

With nearly everyone having a video recording device handy, this becomes an even easier skill to acquire since bar speed and effort can be seen immediately after the set.

[Les]

I think this is a good idea, but not done every session. This would grind a lot of n00bs into the ground. It would probably also get them ramping up the weight on the bar too quickly (e.g. last set was 10 reps, increase 20lbs next session). But, if a third-party were involved, or an intelligent understanding of how the AMRAP is tied to recovery variables existed, then this would also allow a trainee to gain these "feels". Fairly quickly as well.

ALSO:

With nearly everyone having a video recording device handy, this becomes an even easier skill to acquire since bar speed and effort can be seen immediately after the set.

I actually tried this method with two newer lifters. One had done crossfit previously, but we PR'ed all of her lifts in very short order. So we were still pushing into new territory. The other lifter had squatted 2 years before, but again after a couple of weeks we were getting new PR's for her as well. At first we did an AMRAP (up to RPE 9 or form breakdown) on every day we trained the lift. Eventually we just did the normal 3 sets of 5, but went for an AMRAP once per week on each of the big lifts.

I didn't adhere to a set plan for numbers of reps completed equating to a specific weight jump for the next session. If the reps were higher we stuck with 10# jumps, but if they started to get closer to 5 we went down to 5# jumps. Bench and Press were 5#/2.5#. Both ladies got pretty damn strong in short order doing this. I know one was at 275x5 DL's and about the same on squats with light knee wraps. We were planning on doing a meet, so I was getting them used to the wraps. I wasn't cranking the shit out of them, but I bet she was getting something lie 20-30#'s. Had they stuck with it, who knows how strong they could have been.

[Chebass88]

I think this is a good idea, but not done every session. This would grind a lot of n00bs into the ground. It would probably also get them ramping up the weight on the bar too quickly (e.g. last set was 10 reps, increase 20lbs next session). But, if a third-party were involved, or an intelligent understanding of how the AMRAP is tied to recovery variables existed, then this would also allow a trainee to gain these "feels". Fairly quickly as well.

ALSO:

With nearly everyone having a video recording device handy, this becomes an even easier skill to acquire since bar speed and effort can be seen immediately after the set.

Yes & no. I'd bet that large reps in the last set won't happen too often after the first couple of weeks, if at all.

Video playback is great - especially once the lifter can review the lift objectively.

[Murelli]

Video playback is great - especially once the lifter can review the lift objectively.

Speaking from myself, I only learned to review my lifts by using video. I believe that a trainee should use video from the get-go.

[d0uevenlift]

I'm probably not in favor of doing a 1RM after just 6 weeks or so since performing a 1RM is a skill, and could go either way whether the strength is there. A novice grinding a 1RM with poor form might conflate intensity with poor skill and give an inflated RPE. I like the idea of doing AMRAPs on the final set, but probably not for every training session because it could compromise recovery. I think a good compromise would be to have an AMRAP on the last session of each week on novice progression. That way, the skill of learning RPE starts to develop, but it's also a day that gives you 72 hours until your next session, rather than 48.