Matt Neilsen's Log - A Hitchhiker's Guide to Montana

[MattNeilsen]

Some thoughts about my first Montana Method cycle:

Joint pain/overall achiness was minimal to non-existent. I felt very fresh throughout the entirety of the cycle. On reflection, I was probably feeling a little TOO fresh, but that's perfectly fine considering this was the first cycle. It felt great to look forward to training every day. I knew I wasn't going to beat myself into pulp, and knowing the intensity-to-volume ratio was appropriately selected inspired confidence. I had (and have) a high level of buy-in to the structure of the program, so that's obviously going to help with consistency and creating a placebo effect.

Sessions averaged 1:20-1:30 hrs, which is about what I was averaging at the end of LP.

As for each lift:

Bench - Volume felt pretty balanced overall. My bench responded very nicely to the programming, though it's not entirely surprising since MM represented both higher volume and higher frequency. My form improved very quickly from the higher frequency, which I suspect was a big reason for the rapid progress. My biggest bench prior to the cycle was 225 x 1 @9.5; during the cycle, I did 237.5 x 1 @9 and 230 x 1 @8.

Squat - My squat form improved during the cycle, which also wasn't surprising since I increased frequency from 2x/wk to 3x/wk. Prior to the cycle, I did a 315 lb single @8.5; during the cycle, I did 315 x 1 @7 and 325 x 1 @8, so there was a clear improvement. Volume might need to be adjusted up slightly moving forward. In particular, I'm reasonably certain that I need to incorporate Front Squats (or similar) into my training so improve thoracic strength and quad strength/hypertrophy. The inclusion of SGDL has helped and is partly what clued me into my thoracic extensors being a potential weak link. It also became apparent, after analyzing the movements I'm using, that while deadlift should be improving that piece of the kinetic chain, my proclivity to round my thoracic spine is likely indicative of relative weakness. LBBS has much less thoracic demand than HBBS or FS, so it's not surprising that additional work may be needed.

Deadlift - The inclusion of SGDLs and RDLs was great, and I enjoyed how each addressed opposite ends of the spectrum. Based on my RPEs for my 90% single and my 85% work-sets, my e1RM is definitely trending in the right direction (~450 lbs).

I have a good feeling about the next 1-2 cycles. I've been doing a lot of reading (Nuckols, Israetel, Helms, Tuschscherer, Zourdos, Izzy, and others) which has increased my confidence in understanding how stress is being applied weekly. ~65-85% seems to be an ideal range for building a developmental base, with 65-75% being preferential for volume and 75-85% representing a low(er) volume, high(er) intensity strength realization. Minimal weekly doses of 85%+ help keep the neural component of strength realization relatively peaked while managing undue fatigue. Majority of sets are kept within the RPE 6-8 range, and the emphasis on all reps is clean and fast.

Well, I think that's enough rambling for my first cycle. Overall, I really enjoy the programming and am looking forward to the next 4-8 weeks. It'll be informative to see how it plays out.

[cb]

Nice write up. Are you going with the strength or hypertrophy bias next cycle?

[MattNeilsen]

Nice write up. Are you going with the strength or hypertrophy bias next cycle?

Based on the 7x5 squats and 8x5 bench in today’s workout, I’m assuming hypertrophy, haha. I told Hanley that I’m happy to do developmental work for 2-3 cycles before going for a big test.

[cb]

Makes perfect sense. I’d be doing the same in your position. I’m going the strength route. I have a feeling that will work out better for me this month and I’m not looking to get a lot bigger right now after putting on 6-7lbs over the last 8 weeks.

[MattNeilsen]

Makes perfect sense. I’d be doing the same in your position. I’m going the strength route. I have a feeling that will work out better for me this month and I’m not looking to get a lot bigger right now after putting on 6-7lbs over the last 8 weeks.

Nice - I’m pumped to see what your numbers are at the end.

A big reason I’m interested in testing the developmental/hypertrophy block(s) is to see how doing work in the 70-80% range plays out. Everyone’s hot and bothered about it right now, so I figure I might as well put it to the test to see how I respond. It’s only n=1, of course, but at least it’s something.

[MattNeilsen]

4/29/18 - Sunday; Cycle 2, W1, D1 (Hypertrophy)
BW: 214 lbs

Squat - 7x5@70%. Do sets of 5 until you hit a set @9...or until you complete set 7, whichever comes first. Rest about 2 minutes between sets.
(e1RM - 350) 245, 7 x 5

Bench - 8x5@70% Do sets of 5 until you hit an @9 set, or until you complete set 8, whichever comes first. Rest about 2 minutes between sets.
(e1RM - 250)
175, 8 x 5

SGDL - 4 sets of 5 @~50% of conventional
(e1RM - 450)
225, 4 x 5

***I worked up quite a sweat today - this was a lot of volume for me. Sets were all moving quite well, though. It made me laugh to realize I did more bench volume today than I did in 2 weeks of LP. No wonder my form is improving so quickly.

[BenM]

Wow - how long did that take?

I enjoyed your write up - those are some great gains in just four weeks, especially on bench. I'm surprised to hear you say that you think LBBS has lower thoracic demands than high bar? I would've thought it'd be the other way round. I have similar issues with upper back strength - am planning on buying an SSB to help that.

[MattNeilsen]

Wow - how long did that take?

I enjoyed your write up - those are some great gains in just four weeks, especially on bench. I'm surprised to hear you say that you think LBBS has lower thoracic demands than high bar? I would've thought it'd be the other way round. I have similar issues with upper back strength - am planning on buying an SSB to help that.

I was in the gym for a while today - pretty sure it went over 1:45.

Re: thoracic strength - I hadn’t thought about it much until reading several articles on Greg Nuckols’ website. The best explanation is in his squat article (https://www.strongerbyscience.com/how-to-squat/). Fair warning: it’s a pretty big article, but I think it’s worth reading.

In a nutshell, the argument is that the momentum arm from the bar relative to the thoracic vertebrae increases as you move from LBBS to HBBS to FS since the bar is progressively further away from the spinal segments. I’m open to being corrected, but his analysis makes sense to me both mathematically and intuitively (I’ve certainly “felt” FS demands more from the thoracic extensors, and HBBS sits between LBBS and FS).

I asked Hanley to program FS into this cycle to see how it responds. I’m hopeful it will help correct some thoracic rounding I’ve been noticing on my deadlifts (and squats to a lesser extent).

[BenM]

Wow - how long did that take?

I enjoyed your write up - those are some great gains in just four weeks, especially on bench. I'm surprised to hear you say that you think LBBS has lower thoracic demands than high bar? I would've thought it'd be the other way round. I have similar issues with upper back strength - am planning on buying an SSB to help that.

I was in the gym for a while today - pretty sure it went over 1:45.

Re: thoracic strength - I hadn’t thought about it much until reading several articles on Greg Nuckols’ website. The best explanation is in his squat article (https://www.strongerbyscience.com/how-to-squat/). Fair warning: it’s a pretty big article, but I think it’s worth reading.

In a nutshell, the argument is that the momentum arm from the bar relative to the thoracic vertebrae increases as you move from LBBS to HBBS to FS since the bar is progressively further away from the spinal segments. I’m open to being corrected, but his analysis makes sense to me both mathematically and intuitively (I’ve certainly “felt” FS demands more from the thoracic extensors, and HBBS sits between LBBS and FS).

I asked Hanley to program FS into this cycle to see how it responds. I’m hopeful it will help correct some thoracic rounding I’ve been noticing on my deadlifts (and squats to a lesser extent).

Yeah that's getting to be a long session

I have read that article (ok, mostly skimmed) before so I'll read it again at some point, thanks. The distance from the vertebrae is a factor I hadn't considered, but in my head I was thinking that the more horizontal back angle (and potentially the heavier weight) while performing the LBBS would put more demand on the thoracic than high bar.

Good luck with the front squats. I hate 'em but once I learned to do them with straps, hated them just a little less. They should definitely help.

[MattNeilsen]

@BenM I had the exact same mental model (wonder where we got that from...). However, think about where the bar physically sits. In LBBS, it’s sitting around T8-T10 (just above the spine of the scapula). In HBBS, the bar is sitting around C7/T1. In FS, the bar is resting on the anterior delts. In each instance, the bar is moving progressively further from the thoracic vertebrae (and, therefore, from their extensors). Consequently, the moment arm of the bar relative to the thoracic spine is actually lowest in the LBBS.

@Hanley Am I spouting any nonsense here? I spent a lot of time thinking about Nuckols’ argument and I think I’m characterizing it accurately, but I want to make sure I’m understanding this correctly.

The relevant section in the squat article is under the section titled “Bar Position” - you can click on it in the PDF, or if you’re using the web browser then it’s about 60% down the page.

[Hanley]

@MattNeilsen

I think you’re right.

[BenM]

@BenM I had the exact same mental model (wonder where we got that from...). However, think about where the bar physically sits. In LBBS, it’s sitting around T8-T10 (just above the spine of the scapula). In HBBS, the bar is sitting around C7/T1. In FS, the bar is resting on the anterior delts. In each instance, the bar is moving progressively further from the thoracic vertebrae (and, therefore, from their extensors). Consequently, the moment arm of the bar relative to the thoracic spine is actually lowest in the LBBS.

@Hanley Am I spouting any nonsense here? I spent a lot of time thinking about Nuckols’ argument and I think I’m characterizing it accurately, but I want to make sure I’m understanding this correctly.

The relevant section in the squat article is under the section titled “Bar Position” - you can click on it in the PDF, or if you’re using the web browser then it’s about 60% down the page.

Thanks. It's a good explanation now I've looked at it. However it's worth noting his point about the 15%-40% difference squatting the same weight. Most people squat a bit more low bar than high; I don't know if I've ever gone for a high bar 1RM, I've mostly done them for higher reps for quad hypertrophy, but at a guess I reckon my low bar 1RM might be around 15-20% higher than my high bar (though if I trained it maybe that'd reduce). So the difference (for me at least) probably wouldn't be massive.

Either way, if I want to strengthen my upper back (which I do, it's a weak point for deadlift as well as squatting) I'll be doing front squats (like you are) or safety bar. Maybe if I actually develop traps, high bar might become a bit more comfortable too :p

[cgeorg]

Is some T spine rounding in the deadlift really a bad thing though? I've never seen someone fail a deadlift because of it, and it improves leverages. Not saying you shouldn't strengthen the area if you want to, but is it actually hurting your DL?

[BenM]

My understanding is, it depends. So long as it’s fairly rigid through the lift; no. If it gets a bit worse at maximal loss that’s probably ok; if it’s moving from ‘somewhat rounded’ to excessive / end range flexion, that could be very bad at some point.

[MattNeilsen]

Is some T spine rounding in the deadlift really a bad thing though? I've never seen someone fail a deadlift because of it, and it improves leverages. Not saying you shouldn't strengthen the area if you want to, but is it actually hurting your DL?

I agree, I don’t think some rounding is much of an issue. Where I notice an issue on my DL, however, is doing higher rep sets (5+) - my back can get pretty rounded by the end. Granted, higher reps are always going to cause fatigue and some form breakdown, but I’d like to minimize it as much as possible. For me, strengthening the thoracic extensors is as much about injury prevention as it is performance improvement.

[MattNeilsen]

Just a quick update:

Noticed some DOMS this morning in my adductors and glutes, and I woke up a little groggy (even though I got 8+ hours of sleep). Upper body seems to be fine. I'm not concerned about it, but recording it so I have something to compare against as we manipulate volume in the future.

[cb]

A big reason I’m interested in testing the developmental/hypertrophy block(s) is to see how doing work in the 70-80% range plays out. Everyone’s hot and bothered about it right now, so I figure I might as well put it to the test to see how I respond. It’s only n=1, of course, but at least it’s something.

I'm sure you'll get hyuge with all that junk volume. But you do realise it'll just be sarcoplasmic hyugeness and you'll lose all your strength gains?

Noticed some DOMS this morning in my adductors and glutes

Snap. So much for the strength block!

[hector]

Some thoughts about my first Montana Method cycle:

This was great. Thanks for writing this.

[MattNeilsen]

5/1/18 - Tuesday; Cycle 2, W1, D2 (Power)
BW: 216 lbs

Squat - 3@60%, 2@70%, 2 singles @77.5%, 1@~82%, 1@90%, 1x2@80%
210 x 3
245 x 2
275 x 1 x 2
290 x 1
315 x 1 @7 (maaaybe even less - video was moving fast)
280 x 1 x 2

Front Squat - Drop load to ~45-50% back squat e1rm for 4x4
175, 4 x 4

Bench - 3@60%, 2@70%, 2 singles@80%, 1@85%, 1@90%, then 1x2@80%
150 x 3
175 x 2
200 x 1 x 2
215 x 1
225 x 1 @7.5
200 x 1 x 2

CGBP - Use ~70% of bench 1rm for 2-3x6 @70% (stop on set 2 if you hit @9)
175, 3 x 6 @8.5-9 on the last set

Deadlift - 6x2 @ 80%
365, 6 x 2 @7-8

***Long workout - think it went about 1:40-1:50. I think Hanley may or may not be turning me into a strength endurance athlete.
***Squat moved really fast today. Not surprisingly, I've noticed that exposure to 90%+ loads on a weekly basis is teaching me a lot about bracing and driving hard. This is a good thing.
***Front squats...yeah. These suck. I was having trouble getting the rack position, so I decided to wrap straps around the bar and hold on to them like handles. Definitely made it better but front squats still suck...which means I probably need more of them. Damn.
***Bench and CGBP moved well. I was feeling pretty tired by the end, but everything was tracking nicely.
***I was pretty drained by the end of deadlifts - not in a bad way, but rest times were creeping into the 3-4 minute range. All in all, a good day's work.

[MattNeilsen]

Some thoughts about my first Montana Method cycle:

This was great. Thanks for writing this.

Sorry, forgot to respond - thanks for reading! This has been a fun experiment thus far.