Kidney Pain? Try more water.

[hackerhercules]

TL;DR - If you've experienced kidney stone symptoms but a urinalysis has shown no blood and medical imaging finds nothing, you either need to reduce the amount of supplements you're taking or you need to drink a hell of a lot more water.

This is another one of those threads I open that are both an absolute no-brainer for people who aren't idiots like I am, and which exposes said idiocy for all of you to point at me and laugh.

I've had two issues with severe, crippling pain far beyond anything I ever experienced in my lower left flank, and a third began two days ago. We're talking level 11 pain where I'm reduced to a gibbering pile of flailing flesh on my apartment floor suddenly appreciating why people who suffer with chronic pain want to kill themselves sometimes. I've been to the doctor each time and they were convinced my symptoms indicated kidney stones (radiating pain from rear lower flank, wrapping around the side and down into my testicles, limited urine output, etc) but urinalysis didn't show any blood, and CT imaging failed to find anything. Every time the symptoms have disappeared in like 2 days max (which usually included vastly increased water intake as a response), and even after pissing through a strainer to try and catch a small stone there's nothing to show for it. My doctor is pretty much just throwing norco at me and telling me we have no alternative but to medicate the symptoms and there's nothing to "figure out". Those of you who've experienced this understand that's not a satisfactory answer, especially if norco leaves you hungover all day like it does me.

So I did some Googling yesterday, and I checked out forum posts and saw some of you guys have had intermittent issues with kidney pain, and it got me thinking, figured it'd be worth discussing.

Recently a buddy of mine was complaining about not hitting certain micronutrient goals and he started taking small amounts of magnesium citrate after I recommended it to him, to help compensate for restrictive dieting. He asked a few times about exceptionally cloudy urine - which I experience when taking magnesium. A few posts online have varied reports from people taking a lot of creatine, or a lot of magnesium or potassium salts, after which they experience what they describe as crippling kidney-like pain similar to what I've described. Leading up to all three of my events, I recall being very busy with work or whatever other excuse and concentrating large doses of whey protein (up to 100g) with very little water before, during, or after, for days at a time.

So the best that I can figure is that a combination of things are happening - I could easily go through, say, a gallon of water during a workout, but I know that's just replacing what's being lost through exertion. I could easily get through another gallon through the course of a day as thirst demands, but I'm wondering how much of that is getting sucked into my muscles or bowels from absorbed/excreted excess creatine. Then you throw in a multivitamin, and the other supplements whose excesses are excreted through kidneys/urine, and the best I can figure is there's just not enough water for the kidneys to effectively eliminate waste.

Cue inflammation, cue gravy piss a few days leading up, cue everything getting backed up and incredible kidney stone-like pain. Yeah it's dumb and it's obvious, but hopefully bringing it up might help someone else who stumbles across this post some day. There's a handful of posts describing similar experiences on other popular sites as well.

@Markthetwisted and @Shane - you've both mentioned kidney-area pain in your logs. Is it clearly muscular, or do you think it could be/has it been confirmed as actual kidney issues? Likewise, do you use a lot of supplements or consume a large amount of whey?

[cwd]

My brother runs marathons and ultra-marathons. His motto is, If your pee is stinky, you need a drinky.

If your pee looks like Budweiser, all is well. If it looks like real beer, you are under-hydrated.

If it looks like Guinness, go to the hospital and drink water on the way.

[Wilhelm]

You could also be too acid.

Just a possibility to look at.

[hackerhercules]

You could also be too acid.

Just a possibility to look at.

What mean?

[Wilhelm]

What mean?

Looks like PH imbalances in either direction are to be looked at.
I didn't know there were different kinds of stones.
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2011/1201/p1234.html

The commonly cited think about keto, (from a really terrible diet and ridiculous study, where kids were being given 90% fat, and it was essentially liquid hydrogenated shortening, is that the acidifying nature of "the diet" can lead to kidney stones.
This is way overblown by keto critics, but that is for a different discussion.

[hackerhercules]

What mean?

Looks like PH imbalances in either direction are to be looked at.
I didn't know there were different kinds of stones.
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2011/1201/p1234.html

The commonly cited think about keto, (from a really terrible diet and ridiculous study, where kids were being given 90% fat, and it was essentially liquid hydrogenated shortening, is that the acidifying nature of "the diet" can lead to kidney stones.
This is way overblown by keto critics, but that is for a different discussion.

Oh, right.

The problem is that I haven't actually developed any stones, or rather no stones have precipitated out of the urine solution in my kidneys. I'm suggesting that dehydration coupled with a large amount of supplements that are primarily excreted straight through the kidneys has resulted in kidney stone-like symptoms that are alleviated upon requisite consumption of water.

[Wilhelm]

Apologies. I was not observing carefully.

[Markthetwisted]

Mine is definitely musclepain, but I have had the occasional twinge when I piss, when I've been severely dehydrated from work. I'm not a big supplement user either. The occasional whey protein shake, and I do try take Creatine, but I never remember. Sorry that's not any help.

[hackerhercules]

Mine is definitely musclepain, but I have had the occasional twinge when I piss, when I've been severely dehydrated from work. I'm not a big supplement user either. The occasional whey protein shake, and I do try take Creatine, but I never remember. Sorry that's not any help.

Hey man I'm just glad you popped in. My effort here isn't so much to find a solution for myself, but propose one for other people. I know our board is big enough to show up in search results, and who knows how many lurkers and drifters we have come by - might catch their eye and solve a problem for someone else some time.

It's so defeating to have incredible pain like that and be told "Well it's not what all your symptoms point to, so we're just going to give you nausea-inducing opiates in the midst of an opiod crisis and shrug our shoulders." Want to help anyone that is in the same weird, fringe situation I find myself in.

[BigDave]

I don't know that your hypothesis ~holds water~ (sorry)

I'm only a medical student, not a gym owner for 40 years, so take my medical thoughts with a grain of salt. But for a variety of reasons I wouldn't be so quick to attribute this pain to periodically inflamed kidneys from having vitamins/protein and only (only?) a gallon+ of water per day...

Couple questions for ya if you want to talk this through more...
-- what tests did you have done? I presume the urinalysis also looked for protein, white blood cells etc. - normal? Also did you have a BUN or creatinine blood test?
-- have you seen more than one doctor? perhaps a nephrologist if you are certain this is kidney pain? Or discussed your theory with your doc?
-- what supplements are you taking other than whey?