How'd your training go?

[SnakePlissken]

Agree with @Hanley and @Renascent on the difficulty of lifting.

Also checking in on Hanley's 7 day Chin protocol. I've been working on getting my Bench and Squat up with Deads on the backburner, but used lots of pullups to keep my back strong. I started hitting a wall on my Bench Monday and couldn't get the prescribed weights (just maintained volume). I decided to deload my pullups this week by just doing pullups on my lifting days for 4-5 sets @7-9ish in hopes of bringing some of the fatigue off my upper body and it worked brilliantly.

Monday had some RPE 10 sets and Wednesday my bench session went fine. Felt like I could've PRed my Bench yesterday even though I only took 1 day off. Seems to be a pretty strong connection with recovery on pullups and bench. Still plan to run pullups like this in the future, but it may get cycled with something else every other week to keep it down. Maybe a week 1 7x/week with BW and week 2 could be 2-3 days of weighted pullups? May experiment this.

[Hardartery]

It just dawned on me how much of a shyster Rip must be to continually assert that lifting weights is a really fucking hard thing to do, or that it's one of the hardest things you can do. Like yeah working youe squat up to 295 3x5 on my LP was one of the harder things I've done but like....that's kinda easy compared to being in a happy marriage, raising a kid, finishing college (especially if you're broke), being mentally ill, gay, dying, literal combat, dying in literal combat, marathons etc.

Like it's not really that serious. It's only game.

Lifting is no where near the hardest thing you can do, unless you're paralyzed and trying to do Squats or something....but seriously it's not. It is rewarding, it helps get through the other things for a variety of reasons. In many ways it's the easiest thing. I lift, I get endorphins and exercise, I balance my brain chemicals and get my calcium levels in line, it makes everything else I do easier or better. It's the most selfish thing I do, by a long shot, but it also helps those around me because it makes me easier to interact with. Hardship is dealing with life and problems without that outlet.

[Hanley]

It just dawned on me how much of a shyster Rip must be to continually assert that lifting weights is a really fucking hard thing to do, or that it's one of the hardest things you can do. Like yeah working youe squat up to 295 3x5 on my LP was one of the harder things I've done but like....that's kinda easy compared to being in a happy marriage, raising a kid, finishing college (especially if you're broke), being mentally ill, gay, dying, literal combat, dying in literal combat, marathons etc.

Like it's not really that serious. It's only game.

I don't think it's one of the hardest things you can do, but I think it's one of the most grounding. And I think "hard" and "grounding" are pretty close.

Like it or not, you will be pulled into the moment on a heavy set. You can drift through marriage, parenthood, college, gaystates...but a single grindy rep snaps you to the present. After suffering (say in combat or other extremes of experience), you might find yourself forever stuck in the experience of suffering. That experience of grounding (lifting with focus/intention) can be pretty great.

And that grounding experience itself changes over time. Anxiety >>> years of in-between >>> absolute presence with emotional detachment

I was tempted to say something along these lines, but lost my nerve, I guess.

Barring all of the aforementioned troubles, lifting weights could very well be the hardest thing that much of his intended audience could ever (voluntarily) undertake.

Or the dank, joyless slog of depression.

::hugs Hanley::

Hugs. Depression was a long time ago (25 years ago). But - yeah - it was fucking awful.

[Hardartery]

It just dawned on me how much of a shyster Rip must be to continually assert that lifting weights is a really fucking hard thing to do, or that it's one of the hardest things you can do. Like yeah working youe squat up to 295 3x5 on my LP was one of the harder things I've done but like....that's kinda easy compared to being in a happy marriage, raising a kid, finishing college (especially if you're broke), being mentally ill, gay, dying, literal combat, dying in literal combat, marathons etc.

Like it's not really that serious. It's only game.

I don't think it's one of the hardest things you can do, but I think it's one of the most grounding. And I think "hard" and "grounding" are pretty close.

Like it or not, you will be pulled into the moment on a heavy set. You can drift through marriage, parenthood, college, gaystates...but a single grindy rep snaps you to the present. After suffering (say in combat or other extremes of experience), you might find yourself forever stuck in the experience of suffering. That experience of grounding (lifting with focus/intention) can be pretty great.

And that grounding experience itself changes over time. Anxiety >>> years of in-between >>> absolute presence with emotional detachment

I was tempted to say something along these lines, but lost my nerve, I guess.

Barring all of the aforementioned troubles, lifting weights could very well be the hardest thing that much of his intended audience could ever (voluntarily) undertake.

Or the dank, joyless slog of depression.

::hugs Hanley::

Hugs. Depression was a long time ago (25 years ago). But - yeah - it was fucking awful.

Depression sucks. Glad it's not haunting you now.

[MarkKO]

It just dawned on me how much of a shyster Rip must be to continually assert that lifting weights is a really fucking hard thing to do, or that it's one of the hardest things you can do. Like yeah working youe squat up to 295 3x5 on my LP was one of the harder things I've done but like....that's kinda easy compared to being in a happy marriage, raising a kid, finishing college (especially if you're broke), being mentally ill, gay, dying, literal combat, dying in literal combat, marathons etc.

Like it's not really that serious. It's only game.

I don't think it's one of the hardest things you can do, but I think it's one of the most grounding. And I think "hard" and "grounding" are pretty close.

Like it or not, you will be pulled into the moment on a heavy set. You can drift through marriage, parenthood, college, gaystates...but a single grindy rep snaps you to the present. After suffering (say in combat or other extremes of experience), you might find yourself forever stuck in the experience of suffering. That experience of grounding (lifting with focus/intention) can be pretty great.

And that grounding experience itself changes over time. Anxiety >>> years of in-between >>> absolute presence with emotional detachment

I was tempted to say something along these lines, but lost my nerve, I guess.

Barring all of the aforementioned troubles, lifting weights could very well be the hardest thing that much of his intended audience could ever (voluntarily) undertake.

Or the dank, joyless slog of depression.

::hugs Hanley::

Hugs. Depression was a long time ago (25 years ago). But - yeah - it was fucking awful.

Depression sucks. Glad it's not haunting you now.

Depression is fucked, and you keep looking over your shoulder to check it isn't sneaking back up on you.

[janoycresva]

I’m so fucking stale on bench press man, whole movement just feels like straight dogshit especially at 80%+, considering doing an OHP focused block only because the movement doesn’t disgust me and make me want to quit lifting

also I did 6x3, 1x4 @ 77% on conventional deadlift yesterday and I’m at like a 1/10 slight soreness in my low back and glutes and nothing anywhere else

[KOTJ]

I’m so fucking stale on bench press man, whole movement just feels like straight dogshit especially at 80%+, considering doing an OHP focused block only because the movement doesn’t disgust me and make me want to quit lifting

also I did 6x3, 1x4 @ 77% on conventional deadlift yesterday and I’m at like a 1/10 slight soreness in my low back and glutes and nothing anywhere else

How long and frequently have you been doing sets with 80% + ?

[janoycresva]

I’m so fucking stale on bench press man, whole movement just feels like straight dogshit especially at 80%+, considering doing an OHP focused block only because the movement doesn’t disgust me and make me want to quit lifting

also I did 6x3, 1x4 @ 77% on conventional deadlift yesterday and I’m at like a 1/10 slight soreness in my low back and glutes and nothing anywhere else

How long and frequently have you been doing sets with 80% + ?

on my third cycle of Hanley’s 3 week general strength, so about 8 weeks of hitting 80%+ about twice per week

[EggMcMuffin]

I think the worst part of depression is that a lot of people don't understand it or will make fun of you for it. I was pretty severely depressed from the ages of 11 to like, my early 20's and it feels like it permanently robbed me of part of my humanity. Of course I dealt with mental problems since I was a young kid so I doubt I was ever going to be anywhere close to "normal" on top of other things but it's very hard to talk to someone and not be able to share that part of yourself. Probably part of why I no longer have friends. How you do bounce back emotionally from having your brain tell you "bro, murder yourself, like, for real" all the time for years and years? I dunno. Lifting just isn't that hard in comparison.

It did cure my PTSD though.

[ChasingCurls69]

I’m so fucking stale on bench press man, whole movement just feels like straight dogshit especially at 80%+, considering doing an OHP focused block only because the movement doesn’t disgust me and make me want to quit lifting

also I did 6x3, 1x4 @ 77% on conventional deadlift yesterday and I’m at like a 1/10 slight soreness in my low back and glutes and nothing anywhere else

Samesies, I'm about to just do dips/press/incline bench after this meet.

[SnakePlissken]

All the talk about staleness and I'm considering dropping LB squatting for a while so I can work on my Front Squat since it's a more Chad exercise than LB.

As a side note, would it be "bad" to linearly progress a lift like a Front Squat if I've never focused on it and gotten it strong? RTS says my e1RM on Front Squats is 250, but I don't think I've ever gone below like 6 rep sets on them.

[janoycresva]

All the talk about staleness and I'm considering dropping LB squatting for a while so I can work on my Front Squat since it's a more Chad exercise than LB.

As a side note, would it be "bad" to linearly progress a lift like a Front Squat if I've never focused on it and gotten it strong? RTS says my e1RM on Front Squats is 250, but I don't think I've ever gone below like 6 rep sets on them.

Maybe you could run something with a weekly or biweekly progression for them, like MM 2-week? At least you'd get more submax practice in than an LP that way, and you'd have some more time for your body to acclimate to front rack before weights started getting heavy (when I LP'd front squats a few years back this was an issue for me, I ended up with tendonitis in both wrists).

[FredM]

I'm really loving the M/W/F - U/L/UL split I started a few weeks ago. I've never done well on anything but 3 day full body, mostly because I think my body needs a rest day. But I've always preferred the mental freedom of U/L splits. But I felt like I wouldn't get anywhere near enough frequency doing U/L splits over 3 days a week (can't workout on the weekends - Dad duty). Dunno why it took me 4 years to discover the U/L/UL split concept but it seems to be providing the best of all words. I cheat and do some pressing in supersets on the L day. Based on how fast my bench was moving on Monday I might actually tie my PR at 15 lbs less bw next week. I also PR'd my weighted dip which was kind of cool and unexpected (+65 lbs for 6@8).

[DCR]

Did paused squats this evening and was reminded again how incredibly more tolerable they are mentally. Definitely a control issue.

Anyway, nevermind my training. @quikky, how is yours going? I recall you mentioning a few months back that you were doing a more intensity based program than may currently be popular, and that it was going well. Have been curious as to what you’re doing, and if it’s continued to be productive.

[ChasingCurls69]

Did paused squats this evening and was reminded again how incredibly more tolerable they are mentally. Definitely a control issue.

Anyway, nevermind my training. @quikky, how is yours going? I recall you mentioning a few months back that you were doing a more intensity based program than may currently be popular, and that it was going well. Have been curious as to what you’re doing, and if it’s continued to be productive.

I noticed the same thing with my pause squats. This block I hit 370x1@7 for 3ct pause, and I did 391x1@8 a few times so that'll be my opener on Sunday.

[JohnHelton]

Yeah. I was considering of using pause squats as my comp squat in training for the aforementioned reason. I can also rationalize that they are better in terms of effective ROM. Without the stretch reflex, you are having to do real work over a larger ROM.

[quikky]

Anyway, nevermind my training. quikky, how is yours going? I recall you mentioning a few months back that you were doing a more intensity based program than may currently be popular, and that it was going well. Have been curious as to what you’re doing, and if it’s continued to be productive.

It has been going fantastic. I have seen week to week progress in literally every single exercise for months now.

One day I saw Andy Baker's blog post about rest-pause training and how he was having success with it. I read up on it and decided to give some of it a shot on my "accessory" lifts. For those that do not know, rest-pause is a technique from Dante Trudel and his DoggCrapp training (often called DC training), where you do a single set to failure, rest 15 breaths or so, do a second set to failure, rest, then a third, and that is it. Well, I started making progress on all my accessory lifts. Every week. Non-stop. This was fascinating to me. I then decided to just do a whole DC run. I whipped up a 4-day DC plan, and ran that. Made progress again. In everything. Every single week. On every exercise. I seriously have not progressed this much since like LP days. Legit started getting stretch marks in places from growth. Something I have not experienced since my bro days when I was a late teen/early 20s.

If someone told me I would make some of the best progress in years doing almost no volume and going high or flat out max intensity, I would have laughed them out the door. Volume is the main driver of hypertrophy, right? I'm undertrained, or something. I am essentially doing either 1 rest-pause set, or 2 regular hard sets per exercise per week, and making better progress than 5x+ the volume before. This past week I have switched to a PPL set up, but still doing 4-day DC. It just rotates through two DC PPL cycles. I have ran the same 4-day DC split for like 3 months now, and while the success has been fantastic, it started to catch up to me in terms of some local fatigue, mainly in my quads and lower back. This PPL DC split will essentially be very similar training but with a bit more time between muscle groups due to the rotating nature. Funny thing is, despite the fatigue build up, I was still making progress. Just taking preventative measures and tweaking my diet a notch.

We'll see how this goes longer term but I am loving training right now. Highly recommend people give it a shot if the goal is bodybuilding/hypertrophy, or if your training has simply gotten stale, like mine has been for a while. It has been a refreshing, enlightening, and very productive experience for me so far.

[janoycresva]

Anyway, nevermind my training. quikky, how is yours going? I recall you mentioning a few months back that you were doing a more intensity based program than may currently be popular, and that it was going well. Have been curious as to what you’re doing, and if it’s continued to be productive.

It has been going fantastic. I have seen week to week progress in literally every single exercise for months now.

One day I saw Andy Baker's blog post about rest-pause training and how he was having success with it. I read up on it and decided to give some of it a shot on my "accessory" lifts. For those that do not know, rest-pause is a technique from Dante Trudel and his DoggCrapp training (often called DC training), where you do a single set to failure, rest 15 breaths or so, do a second set to failure, rest, then a third, and that is it. Well, I started making progress on all my accessory lifts. Every week. Non-stop. This was fascinating to me. I then decided to just do a whole DC run. I whipped up a 4-day DC plan, and ran that. Made progress again. In everything. Every single week. On every exercise. I seriously have not progressed this much since like LP days. Legit started getting stretch marks in places from growth. Something I have not experienced since my bro days when I was a late teen/early 20s.

If someone told me I would make some of the best progress in years doing almost no volume and going high or flat out max intensity, I would have laughed them out the door. Volume is the main driver of hypertrophy, right? I'm undertrained, or something. I am essentially doing either 1 rest-pause set, or 2 regular hard sets per exercise per week, and making better progress than 5x+ the volume before. This past week I have switched to a PPL set up, but still doing 4-day DC. It just rotates through two DC PPL cycles. I have ran the same 4-day DC split for like 3 months now, and while the success has been fantastic, it started to catch up to me in terms of some local fatigue, mainly in my quads and lower back. This PPL DC split will essentially be very similar training but with a bit more time between muscle groups due to the rotating nature. Funny thing is, despite the fatigue build up, I was still making progress. Just taking preventative measures and tweaking my diet a notch.

We'll see how this goes longer term but I am loving training right now. Highly recommend people give it a shot if the goal is bodybuilding/hypertrophy, or if your training has simply gotten stale, like mine has been for a while. It has been a refreshing, enlightening, and very productive experience for me so far.

Would you mind posting your split? I’ve been running submaximal volume oriented programming for years now and I’m pretty stale on it, also it just doesn’t seem like the effort:reward ratio is that good for me. How would you compare the fatigue you’re carrying with this type of training to how you felt on a more volume oriented program?

[quikky]

Anyway, nevermind my training. quikky, how is yours going? I recall you mentioning a few months back that you were doing a more intensity based program than may currently be popular, and that it was going well. Have been curious as to what you’re doing, and if it’s continued to be productive.

It has been going fantastic. I have seen week to week progress in literally every single exercise for months now.

One day I saw Andy Baker's blog post about rest-pause training and how he was having success with it. I read up on it and decided to give some of it a shot on my "accessory" lifts. For those that do not know, rest-pause is a technique from Dante Trudel and his DoggCrapp training (often called DC training), where you do a single set to failure, rest 15 breaths or so, do a second set to failure, rest, then a third, and that is it. Well, I started making progress on all my accessory lifts. Every week. Non-stop. This was fascinating to me. I then decided to just do a whole DC run. I whipped up a 4-day DC plan, and ran that. Made progress again. In everything. Every single week. On every exercise. I seriously have not progressed this much since like LP days. Legit started getting stretch marks in places from growth. Something I have not experienced since my bro days when I was a late teen/early 20s.

If someone told me I would make some of the best progress in years doing almost no volume and going high or flat out max intensity, I would have laughed them out the door. Volume is the main driver of hypertrophy, right? I'm undertrained, or something. I am essentially doing either 1 rest-pause set, or 2 regular hard sets per exercise per week, and making better progress than 5x+ the volume before. This past week I have switched to a PPL set up, but still doing 4-day DC. It just rotates through two DC PPL cycles. I have ran the same 4-day DC split for like 3 months now, and while the success has been fantastic, it started to catch up to me in terms of some local fatigue, mainly in my quads and lower back. This PPL DC split will essentially be very similar training but with a bit more time between muscle groups due to the rotating nature. Funny thing is, despite the fatigue build up, I was still making progress. Just taking preventative measures and tweaking my diet a notch.

We'll see how this goes longer term but I am loving training right now. Highly recommend people give it a shot if the goal is bodybuilding/hypertrophy, or if your training has simply gotten stale, like mine has been for a while. It has been a refreshing, enlightening, and very productive experience for me so far.

Would you mind posting your split? I’ve been running submaximal volume oriented programming for years now and I’m pretty stale on it, also it just doesn’t seem like the effort:reward ratio is that good for me.

Yeah, I totally know how you feel about your training as that has been my exact experience for the last few years. Fairly high effort and fairly low reward. Just a crappy stimulus to fatigue ratio with the typical sub-max, higher volume, SBD type of training for me.

-------

In terms of my split, I have to preface it with the fact that I am new to DC training, and more generally, bodybuilding training myself. So, take what I post with a grain of salt since I am still learning and tweaking it myself. For the cardio days, I preferred lower to moderate intensity work. I do not think HIIT type of training would be as productive for DC training, just intuitively speaking.

For sets described as "RP", the idea is you do one set to complete failure, rest 30 seconds, another set to failure, rest 30 seconds, and then one final set to failure. For example, for Seated Rows RP, say you do 150lb and do 9 reps to failure, you would then rest 30 seconds, do, say 3 reps, 30 seconds again, and say 2 reps. The goal is typically 8-10 reps on the first set, and whatever you can get on the subsequent two. If you hit way more, say 12+ reps on the first one, I would bump up the weight next time you do the exercise. Similarly, if you hit way less, say 5 reps, I would decrease the load next time. Also, if you get a lot more than 3-4 reps on the follow-up sets, you probably did not hit genuine failure on the first one. So, if you did 9, then 6, then 5, it would tell me that the first 9 was either done with reps in reserve, or you waited too long between sets. For some exercises you might choose different rep ranges to shoot for, depending on how you respond and how well you can maintain the intended form.

This is essentially what I have ran initially to great success (mostly a copy and paste of my older post on this forum):

----

Day 1
Bench 2 sets of 5-8 reps @ 8-9 (I do one heavier for most of the non-RP lifts)
Seated Rows RP
Seated Dumbbell Press 2 sets of 6-10 @9-10
Lat Work RP (I like one arm pulls at around 45 degrees)
Tricep Pushdown Variation RP
Curl Variation RP

Day 2
Squat 2 sets of 5-8 @ 8-9
RDL 2 sets of 8-10 @8-9
Dumbbell Split Squat Quad Emphasis (one foot on bench, and let working leg knee travel forward and focus on quad engagement) 1-2 sets of 6-8 @ 9
Leg Curls RP

Day 3
Cardio

Day 4
Press 2 sets of 5-8 @ 9-10
Pull-ups or lat pulldowns RP
Incline Dumbbell or Barbell Press 2 sets of 5-10 @9-10
Lateral Raises RP
Tricep Pushdown Variation RP
Curl Variation RP

Day 5
SSB Squat 2 sets of 5-10 @9
SSB Standing Calf Raises RP (Note: I do them with a slower eccentric and pause at the bottom to take the stretch reflex out of the Achilles, doing that can make your calves SORE, so adjust this down to either just 1 set to failure, or 1 set + 1 rest pause until you're sure you can tolerate more)
Deadlift 2 sets of 4 @ 8-9
Leg Extensions RP

Day 6
Cardio

Day 7
Off

----

How would you compare the fatigue you’re carrying with this type of training to how you felt on a more volume oriented program?

It has been much better for me. The fatigue tends to be less systemic overall, and more localized to the targeted muscles. I was also able to go much longer between needing deloads.

[DCR]

@quikky, I’m glad that I asked - thank you for the detailed responses. I am so fucking sick of being in the gym forever (concededly, my insistence on not lifting two days in a row, and my tendency to not just push through warm ups without unnecessary rests is a large part of the issue), and there’s some nostalgia in this for me too - I’m gonna give it a go.

Your initial response sent me down two rabbitholes late last night, one regarding DC training, and the other into Dorian Yates’ old stuff, as I recalled him being an RP advocate. I actually found one article in which he claimed that he got the concept from Mentzer, and that Dante got it from him. Probably not true, given that they seemed to be working it out in nearly the same time frame, but interesting. I had forgotten about, and was particularly fascinated by, given my renewed interested in paused reps, his insistence on removing all momentum from a rep other than intentional cheat reps (and by “cheat,” he appears essentially to have meant a normal touch and go rep for nearly anyone else).