SARMS

[aurelius]

I have recently been made aware of SARMS. SARM stands for selective androgen receptor modulator. Otherwise known as 'synthetic steroids'.

The bodybuilding community has readily adopted SARMS and anecdotally attests to their efficacy. Some SARMS do have medical studies backing some of their claimed effects (studies for older population studying the SARMS affect on preventing muscle wasting). It is believed the side effects are minimal as SARMS bypasses the liver and selectively acts on specific tissues unlike steroids. Suppression being the number one stated side effect for a few SARMS (which should not be a concern if one is on HRT). SARMS is simply ingested.

Basic legal stuff as I understand it.:
SARMS are not allowed in professional sports.
SARMS are not legal to sale for human consumption. But are legal to sale for research purposes (the loophole on how to get it).
SARMS are not criminal to possess or take like steroids.

A little bit of internet detectory informs me a basic SARMS stack (Osterine and Cardarine) runs about $100 to $200 a month from a vendor that does 3rd party laboratory testing (Amazon and EBay do not sale SARMS). For me, this places SARMS as an expensive supplement to cycle but not outrageous.

Seeing as SARMS are not illegal: I thought I'd start this thread for a discussion on SARMS. Does anyone have any experience with them? Know of anyone that has used them?

[bobmen10000]

I have recently been made aware of SARMS. SARM stands for selective androgen receptor modulator. Otherwise known as 'synthetic steroids'.

The bodybuilding community has readily adopted SARMS and anecdotally attests to their efficacy. Some SARMS do have medical studies backing some of their claimed effects (studies for older population studying the SARMS affect on preventing muscle wasting). It is believed the side effects are minimal as SARMS bypasses the liver and selectively acts on specific tissues unlike steroids. Suppression being the number one stated side effect for a few SARMS (which should not be a concern if one is on HRT). SARMS is simply ingested.

Basic legal stuff as I understand it.:
SARMS are not allowed in professional sports.
SARMS are not legal to sale for human consumption. But are legal to sale for research purposes (the loophole on how to get it).
SARMS are not criminal to possess or take like steroids.

A little bit of internet detectory informs me a basic SARMS stack (Osterine and Cardarine) runs about $100 to $200 a month from a vendor that does 3rd party laboratory testing (Amazon and EBay do not sale SARMS). For me, this places SARMS as an expensive supplement to cycle but not outrageous.

Seeing as SARMS are not illegal: I thought I'd start this thread for a discussion on SARMS. Does anyone have any experience with them? Know of anyone that has used them?

It isn't really a loophole as to admit using sarms is an admission to a crime, perhaps a serious one. I think sarms are very interesting, there was a nice write up in the NY times a while back worth reading. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/well ... afety.html

[TimK]

From that NYT article:

A month later, a study published in JAMA revealed that products marketed as SARMs were frequently misbranded and tainted with unlisted ingredients. Out of 44 products that were purchased online and analyzed, only about half contained an actual SARM, while 10 percent contained none at all. Roughly 40 percent had other hormones and unapproved drugs. Several contained a drug that was abandoned by GlaxoSmithKline a decade ago after it was found to cause cancer in animals.

I remember listening to a podcast with Mike Israetel where he said that if you buy SARMs over the internet you don't know what you're getting and there's a good chance it's actually just steroids, so you might as well just take steroids since at least that way you know what you're getting in to and presumably can make more informed decisions about dosing, etc.

[mbasic]

I heard/read their performance was "dubious" at best.

I like the studies with the "muscle wasting" populous. (haven't read them in a while, but did before)
i.e. SARMS, HMB, BCAAs, used on burn victims and completely immobilized or crippled patients.

Carryover effects to healthy people, bobybuilders, quasi-athletes, etc. seem totally legit.

Where do I get some?

[mbasic]

Basic legal stuff as I understand it.:
SARMS are not allowed in professional sports.

Pretty much ALL sports that are WADA/USADA tested? .. ( "amateur" sports )

Many of the other leagues and feds follow WADA's lead on banned substances.

[bobmen10000]

I heard/read their performance was "dubious" at best.

I like the studies with the "muscle wasting" populous. (haven't read them in a while, but did before)
i.e. SARMS, HMB, BCAAs, used on burn victims and completely immobilized or crippled patients.

Carryover effects to healthy people, bobybuilders, quasi-athletes, etc. seem totally legit.

Where do I get some?

I don't think they are dubious, just not nearly as effective as most steroids or just being healthy, young, male, well fed and trained. And from lurking in a few dark corners of the internet they seem to be marketed towards young men, who unless they are majorly surpressed already produce enough natural test to outweigh any marginal gains from sarms.

[mbasic]

Googling....remembering before when I googled. Re-googling.

Most of them WILL reduce your body's ability to generate its own testosterone, despite what people (retailers) say.

I wouldn't recommend taking anything that alters your body's hormone "axis". fuck that.

(unless legit Rx'd TRT under supervision of a Dr. or Endo that knows what the fuck is going on....just do that then)

[PatrickDB]

If you want to take steroids, just take steroids. Don't take ineffective drugs with largely unknown side-effect profiles.

See also this: https://forum.barbellmedicine.com/forum ... 2775-sarms

[aurelius]

It isn't really a loophole as to admit using sarms is an admission to a crime, perhaps a serious one. I think sarms are very interesting, there was a nice write up in the NY times a while back worth reading. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/well ... afety.html

Do you have a source for that? I know selling them for human consumption is.

All good thoughts. I'd just add that it seems the main complaint is they have not gone through the 2 decades of FDA approval and you don't know what you are getting.

As to do they work on a healthy population: why wouldn't they? What about the mechanism in younger, healthy people would be different? And this ignores a lot of anecdotal usage. The bodybuilding community has utilized them for over a decade and athletes routinely get caught using them.

Meh to the not FDA approval for me. That has far more to do with controlling medicine and money IMO. It takes millions if not more and more than a decade to get drugs approved by the FDA.

Don't know what you are getting so just do steroid: yeah, you didn't change the problem. Only made it worse. How is one to check the steroids are what they are? Yeah.

SARMS don't come in pill form. Plenty of online sellers do 3rd party laboratory testing you can check.

I'm not convinced on SARMS as a miracle drug or even something worthwhile.

[iamsmu]

I want some of this stuff:

[PatrickDB]

As to do they work on a healthy population: why wouldn't they? What about the mechanism in younger, healthy people would be different? And this ignores a lot of anecdotal usage. The bodybuilding community has utilized them for over a decade and athletes routinely get caught using them.

I haven't looked at the literature in a while, but I think you're overselling the benefits of SARMs. Using steroids a benchmark again, there is a copious amount of scientific evidence that they are so effective that you can, say, inject them and sit and your ass all day and still get jacked. See for example this article, which reviews a paper: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-ga ... owth.html/

Where is the analogous evidence for the efficacy of SARMs? I've looked and haven't seen it. Preventing muscle wasting in old people is not a high bar. But if I missed some important paper, please point it out.

The second point is also not strong. Bodybuilders and athletes take all kinds of shit (and more generally do all kinds of things in and out of the gym) we know to be placebos because they are uninformed or stupid.

[aurelius]

As to do they work on a healthy population: why wouldn't they? What about the mechanism in younger, healthy people would be different? And this ignores a lot of anecdotal usage. The bodybuilding community has utilized them for over a decade and athletes routinely get caught using them.

I haven't looked at the literature in a while, but I think you're overselling the benefits of SARMs. Using steroids a benchmark again, there is a copious amount of scientific evidence that they are so effective that you can, say, inject them and sit and your ass all day and still get jacked. See for example this article, which reviews a paper: https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-ga ... owth.html/

Where is the analogous evidence for the efficacy of SARMs? I've looked and haven't seen it. Preventing muscle wasting in old people is not a high bar. But if I missed some important paper, please point it out.

The second point is also not strong. Bodybuilders and athletes take all kinds of shit (and more generally do all kinds of things in and out of the gym) we know to be placebos because they are uninformed or stupid.

All good points.

I am not claiming they are as effective as steroids. Or that a healthy person can make gains while sitting on their ass. From what I know: They are significantly cheaper than steroids. By more than half unless someone else knows a legit source that will sell you a stack for less than $200 a month.
The health risks are reduced. Steroids impact the entire system. SARMS selectively act on specific tissues. Both suppress testosterone (again, not a problem if on HRT).
Unless I'm missing something, to possess and consume SARMS is not a felony.

You and others have brought up great points. The literature is not there yet on SARMS. The anecdotal evidence should be taken with a grain of salt. Use at your own risk.

[Sumo]

If it sounds too good to be true, it is.

[quark]

I want some of this stuff:

SpoilerShow

When I was in college they sold codeine cough syrup over-the-counter.

[bobmen10000]

It isn't really a loophole as to admit using sarms is an admission to a crime, perhaps a serious one. I think sarms are very interesting, there was a nice write up in the NY times a while back worth reading. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/well ... afety.html

Do you have a source for that? I know selling them for human consumption is.

All good thoughts. I'd just add that it seems the main complaint is they have not gone through the 2 decades of FDA approval and you don't know what you are getting.

As to do they work on a healthy population: why wouldn't they? What about the mechanism in younger, healthy people would be different? And this ignores a lot of anecdotal usage. The bodybuilding community has utilized them for over a decade and athletes routinely get caught using them.

Meh to the not FDA approval for me. That has far more to do with controlling medicine and money IMO. It takes millions if not more and more than a decade to get drugs approved by the FDA.

Don't know what you are getting so just do steroid: yeah, you didn't change the problem. Only made it worse. How is one to check the steroids are what they are? Yeah.

SARMS don't come in pill form. Plenty of online sellers do 3rd party laboratory testing you can check.

I'm not convinced on SARMS as a miracle drug or even something worthwhile.

The legislation to classify sarms as a schedule III drugs has went nowhere. I had not checked recently and wrongly assumed there would have been movement in 10 months, particularly since Hatch was behind it.

[PatrickDB]

The health risks are reduced. Steroids impact the entire system. SARMS selectively act on specific tissues.

I'm not sure we possess the data to make the first claim (yet). The side effects are a huge question mark. For all we know, their use may seriously fuck your shit up. More trials needed, imo.

Practically speaking, one point in favor of steroid/testosterone use (vs SARMS) is that we know exactly what the side effects are and how to mitigate them. We are so good at this that TRT is an FDA-approved therapy. Of course, the drawbacks never go away, but at least it's possible to do an educated risk/reward calculation (whether the use is for medical purposes or vanity). So the health risks are reduced to the extent that they are a known quantity.

[bobmen10000]

The health risks are reduced. Steroids impact the entire system. SARMS selectively act on specific tissues.

I'm not sure we possess the data to make the first claim (yet). The side effects are a huge question mark. For all we know, their use may seriously fuck your shit up. More trials needed, imo.

Practically speaking, one point in favor of steroid/testosterone use (vs SARMS) is that we know exactly what the side effects are and how to mitigate them. We are so good at this that TRT is an FDA-approved therapy. Of course, the drawbacks never go away, but at least it's possible to do an educated risk/reward calculation (whether the use is for medical purposes or vanity). So the health risks are reduced to the extent that they are a known quantity.

I think you are being overly generous in saying we know the (long term) side effects of steroids, or at least illegal ones. You would know more than I but I don't think there are a lot of studies with large sample sizes following participants over years.

[PatrickDB]

Good point. I was thinking mainly short term side effects of testosterone.

[aurelius]

I'm not sure we possess the data to make the first claim (yet). The side effects are a huge question mark. For all we know, their use may seriously fuck your shit up. More trials needed, imo.

I remember seeing several smaller studies that showed no lasting health issues. Not large and long term enough to be conclusive. The literature is simply not there.

What I have read is assume SARMS has similar health impacts as steroids. Which in use is generally okay for short cycles for most people. Short-term health issues can be corrected (suppression). Long-term continuous usage very likely to have diminishing returns and negative health consequences.

Assuming SARMS health issues are similar to steroids and the purported effect less, what are the pros?
SARMS are legal.
SARMS are less expensive.

My take after this discussion: Needs more research. And given the propensity for Congress to concern troll the population and classify performance enhancers as schedule III drugs, the only way the research for SARMS moves forward is if the drug industry decides there is a market for it in the elderly population.

[PatrickDB]

Another nitpick: I'm not sure SARMs are cheaper than testosterone. Test cypionate is inexpensive.

It's also legal if you get a prescription for TRT.