Jourdan Delacruz

[mbasic]

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Fine lifting!

[mbasic]

just want to go on record to say her going down a (Two?) weight class(es) was a probably a big mistake.

[mbasic]

It would appear I was wrong (weight cut) ... granted, its a dynamic situation and all.

[Testiclaw]

She lifts the least "American", and happens to be fairly consistent and continually improves.

So strange!

[mbasic]

She lifts the least "American", and happens to be fairly consistent and continually improves.

So strange!

Yeah, I like her technique but IIRC, her last 3-4 International meets before Roma Cup, she's been only ~50% on her attempts.
Nearly bombed in a couple of recent meets. (One, missed the first two CJ attempts ?!?!)

[asdf]

She lifts the least "American"

Can you elaborate a bit please?

[Testiclaw]

She lifts the least "American"

Can you elaborate a bit please?

Vertical extension with the legs, instead of throwing her shoulders back and never getting full knee extension.

[Testiclaw]

I picked the first YouTube video with her in it that came up, and screened three other US lifters in it just to make it obvious;





She still has very American problems...elbows are back not down, she catches bars overhead in front of her with arms externally rotated, etc.

But her extension is nice.

[asdf]

Vertical extension with the legs, instead of throwing her shoulders back and never getting full knee extension.
...
She still has very American problems...elbows are back not down, she catches bars overhead in front of her with arms externally rotated, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to gather and share those still shots. Very helpful.

I went and looked at elbows and knee extension at the top of the second pull in a number of lifters. Lu, Kuo, Toma all looked great (not surprising). But so did Natalie Woolfolk, Jenny Arthur, and Morghan King. Donny Shankle and Chad Vaughn both looked "American," but so did Klokov.

Maybe I'm not seeing things correctly. Regardless, why you say these are American problems? Are they just more common with American lifters? Are these things actually coached in America, or are they just not noticed or corrected? Is this something new?

[Testiclaw]

Regardless, why you say these are American problems? Are they just more common with American lifters? Are these things actually coached in America, or are they just not noticed or corrected? Is this something new?

It's definitely not something new, it's always been around. I think it's a combination of a lot of problems, namely that we (Americans) don't have a good understanding of the mechanics of weightlifting, we don't have a unified theory of weightlifting, and, we don't have the ability to look long-term at development.

My wife is a thrower, and the parallels for weightlifting and hammer throwing are extremely eerie.

In America throwers aren't even exposed to the hammer until college, so it's pretty late compared to the rest of the world. For that reason it's "mysterious" and foreign to most throwing coaches you find all around in middle and high schools.

What the US does is find big folks who look "okay" with the hammer after minimal instruction, and then they get them really, really strong. They keep pace with the rest of the world as Juniors, but then plateau while the rest of the world leaves them behind.

Weightlifting is the same way. We find folks that are "okay" with snatching and cleaning after a little work, and then just try to get them strong and hope it's good enough. We end up with a ton of prospects that are "the next big thing" that never seem to keep up with the rest of the world.

The benefit of state-sponsored athletic programs is that their sole purpose was to dissect and understand sport, and determine the best ways to produce top performers.

The drawback to athletic programs in America is that their sole purpose is income for the creator. That means you need something to market or sell, not something that works.

And, we end up with a handful of coaches who have tried to figure weightlifting out on their own rather than learn from the countries that have been hammering away at the sport for decades. It's really strange.

Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?

Long-term development, and learning what other countries and systems have developed (and why they do what they do) is just out of minds.

Most Americans catch weight forward, externally-rotated.

Most Americans overextend their hips, underextend their legs, and have to chase their bars forward.

Most Americans loop cleans and have them crash in the receiving position.

Most Americans have weak legs but "big squats".

Why? I dunno.

The optimistic part of me says that people are doing their best but the system we have doesn't educate coaches enough before putting them in charge of training people.

The pessimistic part of me thinks it's all a fucking fraud and nobody knows anything, and doesn't even understand how much they don't know.

[Testiclaw]

Looking at top people can be problematic, too.

Loradeena has a very early and exaggerated scoop (though her feet remain flat).

Klokov has an extremely exaggerated and overextension.

Etc, etc.

But watching the bulk of their lifters (especially youths and mid-tier lifters) makes it easier to see what they teach.

Folks at the top often have unique or less-than-ideal patterns but they just make them work, and aren't the people we want to emulate.

In the US, almost everybody has the problems I mentioned in the previous post.

[KyleSchuant]

Interesting observations, Testiclaw, thankyou.

There are not enough Aussie weightlifters for any consistent style, good or bad. We muddle along even more.

[mbasic]

Norik Vardanian ?




(and if yes, there's a big hidden joke with that (he's hardly 'american' with regards to olympic weightlifting) )

[Testiclaw]

Norik Vardanian ?




(and if yes, there's a big hidden joke with that (he's hardly 'american' with regards to olympic weightlifting) )

He had a good teacher...

And he's married to Jenny Arthur, which explains why she lifts so differently from other Americans.

[mbasic]

He had a good teacher...

ya, that was the joke/ obvs exception to the rule thing.
Maybe his dad had a lot of input, maybe not. IDK to be honest.
But Norik lifted in/for Armenia ... so .....if not his father...yeah

And he's married to Jenny Arthur, which explains why she lifts so differently from other Americans.

ya, her clean is very "non american"; snatch same thing but less so.

Oh oh oh ... here's a fav or mine:
(thoughts?)

[asdf]

It's definitely not something new, it's always been around. I think it's a combination of a lot of problems, namely that we (Americans) don't have a good understanding of the mechanics of weightlifting, we don't have a unified theory of weightlifting, and, we don't have the ability to look long-term at development.
...
The optimistic part of me says that people are doing their best but the system we have doesn't educate coaches enough before putting them in charge of training people.

Thanks for all of that. Again, very helpful.

Looking at top people can be problematic, too.

But watching the bulk of their lifters (especially youths and mid-tier lifters) makes it easier to see what they teach.

Folks at the top often have unique or less-than-ideal patterns but they just make them work, and aren't the people we want to emulate.

In the US, almost everybody has the problems I mentioned in the previous post.

All that makes sense.

P.S. I've seen discussions and videos of the external/internal rotation debate and some (Everett, the Squat U guy) counter with visual evidence that lots of Chinese and even Torokhtiy (sp?) himself externally rotate. I don't know enough to judge the merits of their arguments, which is frustrating.

[Testiclaw]

P.S. I've seen discussions and videos of the external/internal rotation debate and some (Everett, the Squat U guy) counter with visual evidence that lots of Chinese and even Torokhtiy (sp?) himself externally rotate. I don't know enough to judge the merits of their arguments, which is frustrating.

That observation actually touches on one of the BIGGEST problems people have when they watch good weightlifters: confusing deliberate actions with artifacts of proper mechanics, and, mimicking symptoms rather than causes.

With heavy loads the arms might be less internally rotated than Chinese/Russians teach or demonstrate...but that intent is to still be internally rotated, and that's the "feel" when the bar is overhead. You're trying to internally rotate and shrug but the load prevents it. That's a lot different than, "he's not internally rotated so we should teach deliberate external rotation".

The same goes to the sound of weightlifting shoes reconnecting the ground: they're essentially pulled into the floor with the upper body and gravity hard enough to make a loud noise. But people hear that noise and assume they're intentionally kicking their legs back down to be loud, and we end up with a ton of lifters who kick because the symptom is the same, "SMACK"...but the cause, an aggressive third pull on flat fleet versus a donkey kick or stomp, isn't.

Shoulders behind the bar and the scoop is another; the "feel" of a balanced extension will be to have the shoulders go straight up...but in a slow-mo video the shoulders clearly end up behind the bar. But that isn't the intention, that's a symptom of vertical extension with a heavy load on a balanced foot. So we emphasize shoulders never going back, even though they will on their own. But that's different than teaching people to throw their shoulders back because it happens with heavy loads.

[Skander]

She lifts the least "American"

Can you elaborate a bit please?

Vertical extension with the legs, instead of throwing her shoulders back and never getting full knee extension.

Dude I'm right here.

Seriously though, unlearning the American style is hard. On the plus side, did you know that if you actually use your quads fully lifting is way easier?

[asdf]

...one of the BIGGEST problems people have when they watch good weightlifters: confusing deliberate actions with artifacts of proper mechanics, and, mimicking symptoms rather than causes.

Once again, all of that makes sense.

My natural tendency is to internally rotate, so I'll just ignore those who say that I need to "fix" that.

Thanks again, coach.