not a thing^
but yeah, learned bad habits are hard to break after 1000's or reps
Moderator: Manveer
We've actually stopped working on them right now!
So, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.Testiclaw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:55 pm Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?
Bingo, yep.OCG wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:45 pmSo, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.Testiclaw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:55 pm Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?
Personally, and maybe I'm weird, but, holding weight overhead feels waaaaaayyy better internally rotating and squeezing my shoulder blades together/shrugging. I went from dicking around sorta being able to overhead squat, to being able to do one easily. Much easier position to be in and I feel much more flexible. Does not one just dick around with this shit and figure out what feels good/more efficient?Testiclaw wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:19 pmBingo, yep.OCG wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:45 pmSo, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.Testiclaw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:55 pm Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?
Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.
I honestly don't know. Everybody... EVERYBODY I've ever taught to snatch or overhead squat has become proficient and fluent with an internally rotated and pinched/shrugged position.OCG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:14 amPersonally, and maybe I'm weird, but, holding weight overhead feels waaaaaayyy better internally rotating and squeezing my shoulder blades together/shrugging. I went from dicking around sorta being able to overhead squat, to being able to do one easily. Much easier position to be in and I feel much more flexible. Does not one just dick around with this shit and figure out what feels good/more efficient?Testiclaw wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:19 pmBingo, yep.OCG wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:45 pmSo, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.Testiclaw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:55 pm Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?
Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.
Anatomically even it makes sense. The position we want the arms to be in, internal rotation requires less flexibility from the lats and everything else. Pinching the shoulder blades brings the shoulder socket further backwards which also puts us in a position where we can lean over more and keep the bar balanced.Testiclaw wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:42 amI honestly don't know. Everybody... EVERYBODY I've ever taught to snatch or overhead squat has become proficient and fluent with an internally rotated and pinched/shrugged position.OCG wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:14 amPersonally, and maybe I'm weird, but, holding weight overhead feels waaaaaayyy better internally rotating and squeezing my shoulder blades together/shrugging. I went from dicking around sorta being able to overhead squat, to being able to do one easily. Much easier position to be in and I feel much more flexible. Does not one just dick around with this shit and figure out what feels good/more efficient?Testiclaw wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:19 pmBingo, yep.OCG wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:45 pmSo, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.Testiclaw wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:55 pm Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?
Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.
It lets you carry the weight with the stronger, larger muscles of the upper back.
It puts to bar farther back over the base of the neck.
It allows a fair amount of movement in order to balance if the snatch isn't too good and save a lift while externally rotated arms restrict this.
I don't understand why there are still American weightlifting coaches who not only allow a very externally rotated position...but teach it as the correct way.
Obviously, I don't understand the anatomy, physics, or coaching trends as well as you. But I watched a Burgener video and read an Everett article and I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on. Or maybe in the case of Burgener, misspeaking. Everett addresses some of that at the start of his article:
In the Burgener video, he seemed to be making the very mistake that Everett cited above -- i.e., he was arguing that if you "internally rotate" then your shoulders will roll forward and you'll lose the bar forward. That's why he's always cuing "show me your arm pits."Finally, bear in mind that IR/ER occurs at the glenohumeral joint—it’s the arm rotating in the shallow cup of the shoulder blade that it sits in. It does NOT involve protraction and retraction of the shoulder blade—any arguments against internal or external rotation that cite protraction/retraction of the scapulae as the problem with a given position are confusing the issue improperly (e.g. don’t internally rotate because the shoulder will roll/collapse forward; that’s not internal rotation of the arm, it’s unwanted movement of the shoulder blade unnecessary to achieve internal/external rotation).
asdf wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:14 pmObviously, I don't understand the anatomy, physics, or coaching trends as well as you. But I watched a Burgener video and read an Everett article and I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on. Or maybe in the case of Burgener, misspeaking. Everett addresses some of that at the start of his article:
In the Burgener video, he seemed to be making the very mistake that Everett cited above -- i.e., he was arguing that if you "internally rotate" then your shoulders will roll forward and you'll lose the bar forward. That's why he's always cuing "show me your arm pits."Finally, bear in mind that IR/ER occurs at the glenohumeral joint—it’s the arm rotating in the shallow cup of the shoulder blade that it sits in. It does NOT involve protraction and retraction of the shoulder blade—any arguments against internal or external rotation that cite protraction/retraction of the scapulae as the problem with a given position are confusing the issue improperly (e.g. don’t internally rotate because the shoulder will roll/collapse forward; that’s not internal rotation of the arm, it’s unwanted movement of the shoulder blade unnecessary to achieve internal/external rotation).
Maybe these aren't the coaches you're thinking of, but I'd be curious if you agree or disagree with Everett's analysis/explanation/terminology.
https://www.catalystathletics.com/artic ... ch-Really/
I think Max Aita is solid, and not just because he's from here, with the stuff he puts out and his way of structuring training and positioning.
I've seen lots of his videos, but haven't read any of his books. I'll take a look.