Coaching and Cueing - When Enough is Enough

[platypus]

Johnny Pain wrote something similar in Greyskull LP, 3rd ed. He was talking about how people will see his responses to form checks, and freak out that he doesn't give everyone a laundry list of things to change.

What needs to be understood is that I DO see those things, I just do not care that they are happening. "Correcting" them will do nothing more than add more items for the individual to consciously focus on while performing the movement that they would have gotten strong using "incorrectly" had they not contacted me or logged into the internet anyway.

chap. 7, p. 154

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

This is a good convo...but the point where "enough is enough" is going to be wooly enough to make it very difficult to draw anything concrete out of this.

[mgil]

This is a good convo...but the point where "enough is enough" is going to be wooly enough to make it very difficult to draw anything concrete out of this.

Certainly there isn’t going to be some well-defined limit of cues/corrections that should be articulated. Especially over a spectrum of trainees.

I started this thread as a point of discussion in that sometimes less is more, as some of the prior posts point out. I even think saying “good” after each rep is somewhat a waste of energy, unless they have made an immediate correction to a verbalized cue. Otherwise, just let them get the reps in.

ETA:

Basically, it’s worth noting from both the coach and trainee perspectives that silence isn’t absence of effort when it comes to observation of movement.

[Pickles]

What needs to be understood is that I DO see those things, I just do not care that they are happening. "Correcting" them will do nothing more than add more items for the individual to consciously focus on while performing the movement that they would have gotten strong using "incorrectly" had they not contacted me or logged into the internet anyway.

chap. 7, p. 154

This is good, I may need to look into reading more from him.

[KyleSchuant]

Basically, it’s worth noting from both the coach and trainee perspectives that silence isn’t absence of effort when it comes to observation of movement.

Greg Everett said, "General coaching rule: If I don't say anything, the lift was fine. Or it was so shitty I can't stand talking to you at that moment."

[Testiclaw]

Another finnicky issue with me is coaches who don't understand that the cue isn't a lesson in and of itself...it's a reference to a previous instruction and explanation.

If I talk with lifter A and explain why she needs to get her elbows a bit more down and out during her dip and drive of the jerk, I'll cue her "elbows" when she's lifting.

But, I might also cue "elbows" with another lifter if we determine that her initial position is sufficient but she needs to keep the elbows motionless in reference to the hips during the drive portion of her jerk.

Same cue, but for different reasons. Cues are always references to past instructions and lessons.

A lot (A LOT) of confusion for technique comes from coaches hearing a cue and not understanding why it's being used. (see "heels!" in the jerk).

[mgil]

An example of the SSOC trainees run amok on reddit.

Even with a video form check, throwing several cues at a person is overkill. Look for a major problem or root cause and give one or two pointed ideas. Instead, it’s a whole bunch of shit, videos, articles being posted at times.

If people are looking for form feedback, I doubt they are looking to be given homework assignments.

[mgil]

Adding another...

[BostonRugger]

Adding another...

28 replies.

Quit letting your knees shoot so far forward and let’s all get back to our lives.


ETA: I actually read the thread. You boys and your arguin’

[Leah]

Yes, in this particular discussion, I think it is important to note that constant cueing, positive and corrective, leads a lifter to expect and NEED that feedback. I have seen that it creates a certain level of anxiety in people if I am more silent or while we work through a transitional time of adjusting to my cueing vs. what they had in the past. They start to fear that I am not watching or that I don't know what to say, since they are conditioned to be corrected in SOME way. Or they can become anxious about what to do without continual feedback. When in reality a lot of this is very repetitive, and a lot of it is PRACTICE that doesn't need constant feedback. They need to get the job done, not overthink it, and they need to move on knowing it's all just fine.

An interesting anecdote-my first teaching job was at a fairly rigorous elementary school that prided itself in holding a high standard and requiring excellence and virtue from all students (those are good things, but they are kind of good buzz words here), and this translated into very, very nit-picky grading and feedback. I was expected to correct EVERYTHING, even an incorrectly crossed "t", and there was never an allowance for letting a young reader stumble over a word when reading aloud. If it was wrong, it must be corrected. Never mind that this child also needs to learn to scan and read with more confidence. No we must stop them and FIX it. This can happen in coaching as well. As a teacher, I could even be corrected on my white-board penmanship if it wasn't exact. As you might imagine, students where insanely stressed by the constant, never-ending corrections. I knew I had to leave when I learned that 2nd graders were losing hair due to stress. Ack!

[mgil]

@Leah, that’s a great analogy in real life.

I guess my attitude towards the cueing process comes from when I was a teacher and music instructor as well. When teaching math I was very much about the big picture. My main concern was to expose kids to concepts, help them get to a fundamental understanding of the process and application, and see how it could be used elsewhere. The basic analysis, synthesis, transfer process.

When teaching private music lessons, I would only stop kids when something was gone horribly wrong. I found out early on that if people aren’t used to playing a piece of music, or even a melodic phrase, all the way through, then they have difficulty developing a good sense of musicianship early on.

[KyleSchuant]

There's an SS clean instructional video floating around and people commenting on it are saying the subject should be taught with a broomstick for six weeks before getting a barbell. I've seen this sort of thing often. No adult paying for your services will put up with that.

Enormous detail in coaching will cause retention problems.

[DirtyRed]

See: Commission Bias

This is probably really big.
You are paying someone with the expectation they will fix you.
They are under pressure to fix you because that's what they are charging you for.
I don't want to pay somebody $100 for a thumbs up. They want to make sure I am getting my $ worth.

That's the moron lifter's fault for paying for coaching in the first place.

DirtyRed (who will gleefully talk at you for free) usually only suggests something or other if someone is complaining that something is causing pain. Usually "WAH WHY DO MY WRISTS/ELBOWS HURT WHEN I SQUAT?!?!" to which the obvious answer is "STOP JAMMING THEM INTO YOUR EARS, ASSHOLE." Wrist or elbow pain benching? Stop holding the bar in your fingers, dumbass.

Also will nitpick stance width is someone is asking how a squat looked and they didn't hit depth because their stances is clearly too wide, or more likely, too narrow.

It helps to think of it like golf. In golf, as long as your "angle of attack" (steep to shallow), club face (open/closed/square), and club path ("in to out," "out to in,") straight at target through impact are acceptable for the type of shot you want to hit, probably not a lot of need to fix anything. If anything is off by even one degree, it's time to nitpick everything because that's the only way you GITGUD. Likewise, if you're doing legal reps, not blatantly costing yourself force production or transfer into the bar or the like, and aren't causing or greatly elevating the risk of pain or injury, there probably isn't anything worth fixing.