The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

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AlanMackey
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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#321

Post by AlanMackey » Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:27 am

KOTJ wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm Wait, are you training for strength and you haven't increased you ERM in 2 years?
It kinda makes sense: his old quarter squats eRM were absurdly high. Now that he reaches proper depth, his new eRM are nowhere near his old ones, but getting there slowly.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#322

Post by brkriete » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:42 am

SnakePlissken wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:09 pm
brkriete wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:50 am
I suspect the uncoached squats ending up so much higher could well be because it's pretty easy to cheat depth and pretend you're still making progress.
I'm pretty sure I did the same thing too. My squats were parallel at best when I did SS and the TM. The fact my 1rm squat hasn't increased in 2 years eats me sometimes until I remember that I actually squat below parallel with weights that used to make me wonder if I was finally going to hurt myself seriously bad.
My other thought is that people who can afford to pay for coaching are the 40-something white collar guys who haven't done a squat in 20 years if ever and the ones who can't afford coaching are the younger more athletic guys who respond better to an LP anyway.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#323

Post by wiigelec » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:39 am

KOTJ wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm Wait, are you training for strength and you haven't increased you ERM in 2 years?
I got that beat easy…

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#324

Post by KOTJ » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:51 am

wiigelec wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:39 am
KOTJ wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm Wait, are you training for strength and you haven't increased you ERM in 2 years?
I got that beat easy…
What's been your experience?

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#325

Post by KOTJ » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:53 am

brkriete wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:42 am
SnakePlissken wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:09 pm
brkriete wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:50 am
I suspect the uncoached squats ending up so much higher could well be because it's pretty easy to cheat depth and pretend you're still making progress.
I'm pretty sure I did the same thing too. My squats were parallel at best when I did SS and the TM. The fact my 1rm squat hasn't increased in 2 years eats me sometimes until I remember that I actually squat below parallel with weights that used to make me wonder if I was finally going to hurt myself seriously bad.
My other thought is that people who can afford to pay for coaching are the 40-something white collar guys who haven't done a squat in 20 years if ever and the ones who can't afford coaching are the younger more athletic guys who respond better to an LP anyway.
Lots of teenage - 30 somethings pay for strength coaching.

I think the 40 something white collar guys are paying personal trainers at nice gyms.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#326

Post by wiigelec » Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:18 am

KOTJ wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:51 am
wiigelec wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:39 am
KOTJ wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm Wait, are you training for strength and you haven't increased you ERM in 2 years?
I got that beat easy…
What's been your experience?
low volume high intensity and training resistance don’t work well together

and no amount of don’t be a pussy eat more and trt will change that significantly

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#327

Post by KOTJ » Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:52 am

wiigelec wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:18 am
KOTJ wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:51 am
wiigelec wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:39 am
KOTJ wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm Wait, are you training for strength and you haven't increased you ERM in 2 years?
I got that beat easy…
What's been your experience?
low volume high intensity and training resistance don’t work well together

and no amount of don’t be a pussy eat more and trt will change that significantly
What type of programming have you been doing the last 6 months?

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#328

Post by wiigelec » Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:02 am

I’ve been doing BBM knee rehab due to tendonitis

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#329

Post by KOTJ » Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:37 am

@wiigelec I didn't see a training log for you. I also have no idea what is in the BBM Knee Rehab template. I see its for 12 weeks: has your issue been improving over 6 months of repeating it?

Is there a workable ROM and/or RPE that doesn't aggravate it? Heeled vs flat shoes?

Do knee sleeves (tighter compression, but not "need a friend to help install) or knee wraps help?

I assume you've tried tempo/slow eccentric squats, and have done low bar, high bar, front, box squat, etc. Any ranking?

Curious if trap deadlifts, experimenting with stance for hack squat, leg press, pendulum squat, etc were helpful?

Same for isolation stuff like leg curls, leg extensions, etc.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#330

Post by wiigelec » Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:35 am

@KOTJ I have a couple logs over at SS if you’re interested. The knee rehab template is some higher rep tempo stuff tapering down to more regular training over 16 weeks. It seems to be working for me.

As for the rest of it, it’s slowly sunk into my skull over the last year or so how shitty rip and ss are, something you guys over here have known for a while now. I’m a bit slow on the draw.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#331

Post by SnakePlissken » Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:20 pm

KOTJ wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:37 pm
SnakePlissken wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:09 pm
brkriete wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:50 am
I suspect the uncoached squats ending up so much higher could well be because it's pretty easy to cheat depth and pretend you're still making progress.
I'm pretty sure I did the same thing too. My squats were parallel at best when I did SS and the TM. The fact my 1rm squat hasn't increased in 2 years eats me sometimes until I remember that I actually squat below parallel with weights that used to make me wonder if I was finally going to hurt myself seriously bad.
Wait, are you training for strength and you haven't increased you ERM in 2 years?
I'm talking about tested maxes. My max at the end of the Texas Method was a 415 squat. That was summer 2020 and the squat was a parallel squat and an absolute grinder, but probably would've been a bad lift in USAPL rules on breaking parallel.

Summer 2021 was the next time I peaked to a 1RM attempt and I repeated the 415, but it was what I called an RPE 10 since I use form as my guide, but honestly could've eeked another out if I had to. The squat would've been good in a USAPL meet and I didn't feel the need to summon satan to get the bar up.

Was supposed to peak after Christmas 2021, but I got a twinge in my knee and then the next time I went to peak, I got a bad sinus infection and let it derail. So I haven't even attempted to peak a lift since July 2021 and I'm not happy about it.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#332

Post by KyleSchuant » Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:43 pm

It looks like we've had another few members recently, so I'm bumping the thread in case they'd like to contribute.

Based on the criteria in the "WNDTP" article on StartingStrength.com,
this collects data based on doing the Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression (SS NLP)
showing the highest work sets people achieved before stopping, whether because of genuine stall, laziness, boredom, injury or whatever.
To qualify, they must have
- high/low bar squatted at least twice a week
- for sets of 5
- adding weight to the bar each time
- until they couldn't

"Previous training" refers to ANY previous training, but commonly includes multiple previous runs of SS NLP
"Injured during NLP" means an injury which stopped their run, and/or led to major changes in it such as no longer pressing or benching

Coached y/n:
Previous training y/n:
Injured during NLP:
Gender:
Age:
Height:
Weight at start and end:
Squat, press, bench, deadlift and powerclean at end of novice linear progression
Any further comments?

Data reported will be entered into this sheet by me.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#333

Post by SSJBartSimpson » Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:31 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:43 pm
red User
Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame
#334Post Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:41 am
SSJBartSimpson wrote: ↑
KyleSchuant wrote: ↑It looks like we've had another few members recently, so I'm bumping the thread in case they'd like to contribute.

Based on the criteria in the "WNDTP" article on StartingStrength.com,
this collects data based on doing the Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression (SS NLP)
showing the highest work sets people achieved before stopping, whether because of genuine stall, laziness, boredom, injury or whatever.
To qualify, they must have
- high/low bar squatted at least twice a week
- for sets of 5
- adding weight to the bar each time
- until they couldn't

"Previous training" refers to ANY previous training, but commonly includes multiple previous runs of SS NLP
"Injured during NLP" means an injury which stopped their run, and/or led to major changes in it such as no longer pressing or benching

Coached y/n:
Previous training y/n:
Injured during NLP:
Gender:
Age:
Height:
Weight at start and end:
Squat, press, bench, deadlift and powerclean at end of novice linear progression
Any further comments?

Data reported will be entered into this sheet by me.
Coached: N for Starting Strength, Y for Texas Method
Previous Training: Y - Ran Starting Strength and Westside periodically for a few months at a time in High School and College
Injured: Couple of back tweaks but they only lasted a week or so at a time
Gender: Male
Age: 28 (started in 2021 Apr, ended in 2021 Aug)
Height: 6"1
Weight Start: 190 lb
Weight End: 215 lb
- Lifts in E1RMs:
DL: 162 -> 288
SQ: 156 -> 263
OP: 83 -> 139
BP: 105 -> 155
PC: 95 -> 145 (3 reps)
Further comments: Kept my squat artificially low because this article convinced me something was wrong that my deadlift was falling behind my squat, so I wouldnt increase my squat unless it was 30 lb behind my deadlift.

https://startingstrength.com/training/a ... vs-reality

Now I know that the reason why my squat was progressing so well and my deadlift was stalling was that I was doing squats with 3x the frequency.
As soon as I met with a Starting Strength Coach he switched me to a customized Texas Method.
Last edited by SSJBartSimpson on Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#334

Post by Bliss » Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:38 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:43 pm
Data reported will be entered into this sheet by me.
Coached y/n: N
Previous training y/n: N
Injured during NLP: N
Gender: M
Age: 25-26 (at the time of SS)
Height: 1.76 m
Weight at start and end: 81.3 kg (17.03.2016) to 92.5 kg (29.04.17) to 88.8 kg (23.06.17)
Squat, press, bench, deadlift and powerclean at end of novice linear progression:

ALL in Kg
SQ = 150 * 5
PR = 67 * 5 and 71 * 3
BN = 92 * 5 and 92.5 * 3
DL = 165 * 5

Any further comments?

Several runs of LP punctuated by learning the lifts, ilnesses, deloads etc. over the course of 16 months

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#335

Post by KyleSchuant » Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:49 pm

Thanks, guys. That brings us up to 106 reported results for the men, and 24 for the women.

Trainers and coaches can pipe in and say how representative they think it is, based on their anecdotal observations.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#336

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:02 am

I just wanted to say: thanks for the spreadsheet, this is absolutely awesome work.

It's hilarious to see the discrepancy between the results claimed by people who promote the program versus the actual results.

One result that particularly resounded with me was: the average bodyweight at the end which is 205 lbs (adult male) versus the average bench press which is 188 lbs (lol). And mind you, most people had previous training experience.

I mean a gallon of milk a day and 3 soul crushing sessions a week with 5 minutes of rest between sets just to be able to not even bench your bodyweight, now that's the stuff.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#337

Post by mbasic » Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:10 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:02 am It's hilarious to see the discrepancy between the results claimed by people who promote the program versus the actual results.
I thought some SS-folks did a paper on this, either Jordan when he was still there and/or John Petrizzo.

Anyway I thought the average SSNLP for a male ended at only 280x5x3 for squat.....I don't remember the actual numbers but the press, bench, DL were all as equally not impressive as the squat numbers.

Sure there was some hand-wavey "YDTFP" excuses/apologies afterwards or something.....

example: 60 y.o. trainees dragging down the averages, and what not.
But, for everyone of those^, you have a 29 year old who was good in high school sports, was doing "silly 3x10 bodybuilder bullshit" prior to doing the SSNLP, and probably hit some really good numbers to equal the averages out.

EDIT:
https://startingstrength.com/article/th ... g-registry

oh the irony on the average ending bench press for males "199.4".
(I assume this is 3x5 with 8 minutes rests)

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#338

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:37 am

@mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#339

Post by mbasic » Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:37 am @mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

The men didn't change waist and hip measurements from start to finish too much .... and only gained 10 pounds.

33.5"+/- at the waist isn't terrible for an average american.

So in my mind they were sorta skinny-fat (even though not "skinny"), and then they got slightly less skinny-fat after DTP.

.... of the average 10 pounds gained:
+ 2 of it was probably bone mass/mineral density;
+ 2-3 probably glycogen storage/water (from eating more and training)
+ 2-3 probably fat mass

....how much does stainless weigh again? V=4/3πr^3

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#340

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:06 am

mbasic wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:37 am @mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

The men didn't change waist and hip measurements from start to finish too much .... and only gained 10 pounds.

33.5"+/- at the waist isn't terrible for an average american.

So in my mind they were sorta skinny-fat (even though not "skinny"), and then they got slightly less skinny-fat after DTP.

.... of the average 10 pounds gained:
+ 2 of it was probably bone mass/mineral density;
+ 2-3 probably glycogen storage/water (from eating more and training)
+ 2-3 probably fat mass

....how much does stainless weigh again? V=4/3πr^3
I might be biased (being a european pajama boi with all the aggressivity bred out of him who does not even lift) but if you are 5'9 with a 34 inches waistline and you weight 196 lbs you are not skinny fat, you are muscular, and look like you lift. But then when you look at the before afters most of them look like a michelin man.

How jacked are you guys ? I know there are some monsters on the forum but still.

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