The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

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Hardartery
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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#341

Post by Hardartery » Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:19 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:06 am
mbasic wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:37 am @mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

The men didn't change waist and hip measurements from start to finish too much .... and only gained 10 pounds.

33.5"+/- at the waist isn't terrible for an average american.

So in my mind they were sorta skinny-fat (even though not "skinny"), and then they got slightly less skinny-fat after DTP.

.... of the average 10 pounds gained:
+ 2 of it was probably bone mass/mineral density;
+ 2-3 probably glycogen storage/water (from eating more and training)
+ 2-3 probably fat mass

....how much does stainless weigh again? V=4/3πr^3
I might be biased (being a european pajama boi with all the aggressivity bred out of him who does not even lift) but if you are 5'9 with a 34 inches waistline and you weight 196 lbs you are not skinny fat, you are muscular, and look like you lift. But then when you look at the before afters most of them look like a michelin man.

How jacked are you guys ? I know there are some monsters on the forum but still.
I think the chest measurement is probably a bigger factor than the waist measurement. I know Hugo Girard for example looked pretty jacked towards the end of his career, with a waist significantly larger than 34". But he had a chest well north of 70" (I think he told me it was 72 or 74", he found out when he had to get a suit made for his wedding) At 6'0 with a waist of probably around 44" atm I do not consider myself jacked, but with a chest just over 50" I am at least not DYEL and could pass for jacked on my bench/shoulder day when I am all pumped up. In spite of the stomach. If I can get down to a 38" waist on the current slow cut (Which is not unrealistic) I will absolutely look jacked in a group of normal sized people. I am aiming for a Pisarenko look, more or less, which I am not far off of right now.
My point being, a 34" waist is meaningless without context. If it's also a 34" chest, not a great look at any height. If it's a 46" or greater chest it's going to look impressive, and if there are shoulders sticking out past that even better. I have acquired the shoulder projecting out to the sides past the chest look and it helps a lot versus the compact look of shoulders not sticking out.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#342

Post by DanCR » Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:33 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:06 am
mbasic wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:37 am @mbasic The data looks completely weird on this article.

Look at "Table 3: Male and Female Waist and Hip Measurements:" for instance So the people did a turbo bulk gaining 1 pound per week (gotta have that gallon of milk you know) but they gained less than half an inch on their waistline ? How is this possible ? I mean I am pretty sure that even if you are Ronnie Coleman this is not possible .

Also, the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs. Assuming that those people are 5'9'' (the average height in the US), they should be around 16% bodyfat and have an FFMI >= 24. This is completely unbelievable. If you have an FFMI of >= 24 you look absolutely jacked.

Say my estimation was way off, and they were 20% body fat instead, that's still an FFMI >= 23, and once again completely unbelievable.

The men didn't change waist and hip measurements from start to finish too much .... and only gained 10 pounds.

33.5"+/- at the waist isn't terrible for an average american.

So in my mind they were sorta skinny-fat (even though not "skinny"), and then they got slightly less skinny-fat after DTP.

.... of the average 10 pounds gained:
+ 2 of it was probably bone mass/mineral density;
+ 2-3 probably glycogen storage/water (from eating more and training)
+ 2-3 probably fat mass

....how much does stainless weigh again? V=4/3πr^3
I might be biased (being a european pajama boi with all the aggressivity bred out of him who does not even lift) but if you are 5'9 with a 34 inches waistline and you weight 196 lbs you are not skinny fat, you are muscular, and look like you lift. But then when you look at the before afters most of them look like a michelin man.

How jacked are you guys ? I know there are some monsters on the forum but still.
Agree. Either the numbers are incorrect, or more folks than I thought declined to / couldn't stand to binge eat and didn't make a ton of progress on the program (as opposed to those of us who became fat fucks and also didn't make a ton of progress).

Bodies are weird / different, though. I'm 5'7", 205 lbs. I have a very large back / shoulders, with lats that rival most natural bodybuilders, if I do say so myself. I've also got very muscular, but not so separated, thighs, and my triceps look large most of the time (but seem to flatten quickly if I take time off). On the other hand, I have a shitty, skinny fat looking chest, long arms with little to show for bis and forearms, no calves (although they come quick if I work them), and, the shit cherry on top, a gut that extends two or so inches past my chest and love handles that put me right in DYEL in the eyes of the average person. (My natural US pants size is a 30 waist. I'm currently a 35 or so who can wear a 34 in some brands if I suck in.) I can fool myself into thinking that I'm jacked when I have a pump going, but outside of that... no, I do not consider myself jacked generally, certainly not by what I once envisioned that to mean. I suspect that this is a lot of us.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#343

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:54 am

To be clear by "jacked" I meant having a good amount of muscle. Sure, there's more than a good amount of muscle to look like a bodybuilder (thin waist, work on small show muscles like rear delts, biceps etc), I agree with that.

@DCR I'm pretty sure you are jacked, based on the numbers you provided. Of course, the more you are in this lifting thing, the more you become body dysmorphic. I'm almost 210 lbs and I feel small. It's OK.

@Hardartery you are right that a waist size without context does not mean much. And certainly the waist size versus chest/shoulders size is much more informative. I guess there could be some guys who just have a very tiny waist (i.e. good bodybuilding genetics) and just store fat in other places. However here we're looking at the average data: how likely is it that all of the guys in the study have the bodytype of Serge Nubret ? I don't know, or these people in the study just have a strange body. There's probably something I'm missing.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#344

Post by Hardartery » Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:11 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:54 am To be clear by "jacked" I meant having a good amount of muscle. Sure, there's more than a good amount of muscle to look like a bodybuilder (thin waist, work on small show muscles like rear delts, biceps etc), I agree with that.

@DCR I'm pretty sure you are jacked, based on the numbers you provided. Of course, the more you are in this lifting thing, the more you become body dysmorphic. I'm almost 210 lbs and I feel small. It's OK.

@Hardartery you are right that a waist size without context does not mean much. And certainly the waist size versus chest/shoulders size is much more informative. I guess there could be some guys who just have a very tiny waist (i.e. good bodybuilding genetics) and just store fat in other places. However here we're looking at the average data: how likely is it that all of the guys in the study have the bodytype of Serge Nubret ? I don't know, or these people in the study just have a strange body. There's probably something I'm missing.
I am sure there is something about the data that we are not catching, it's not exactly a controlled cohort or anything. It is likely a specific subset of the population that he appeals to though.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#345

Post by KyleSchuant » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:33 pm

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:02 am I just wanted to say: thanks for the spreadsheet, this is absolutely awesome work.
Thanks.
Cheeki wrote:One result that particularly resounded with me was: the average bodyweight at the end which is 205 lbs (adult male) versus the average bench press which is 188 lbs (lol). And mind you, most people had previous training experience.
If it helps, you can think of two things. Firstly, generally those numbers are work weights, either 5s or some tapering 3s. If a person can do 188 x3-5, they can do 205x1. Secondly, 2/3 of the people were uncoached, which will often mean not having encouragement or a spotter. This means squats going high or being backed off on a lot - even with safeties, I'm constantly having to yell at my lifters about depth and piking out once it hits 80+% - and bench press being approached tentatively. They might have had a bit more in them - we're not talking 50lb more on bench here, but 5-10lb more is definitely reasonable.
Cheeki wrote:The data looks completely weird on this article. [...] the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs.
I'd be honestly surprised if they were actually measuring people in their gyms, in my experience gym members are self-conscious as fuck about that, if you try to measure them at all, let alone in front of others at the gym, they just don't come back. More likely they simply asked them their stats. "Yeah, I wear 34" slacks." Yeah, he wears his 34" slacks under his belly and is constantly pulling his pants up.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#346

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:49 am

@KyleSchuant yeah your theory regarding pants size makes sense. I've read several threads in the old forum where people mention pants size.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#347

Post by Hardartery » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:12 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:33 pm
Cheeki wrote:The data looks completely weird on this article. [...] the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs.
I'd be honestly surprised if they were actually measuring people in their gyms, in my experience gym members are self-conscious as fuck about that, if you try to measure them at all, let alone in front of others at the gym, they just don't come back. More likely they simply asked them their stats. "Yeah, I wear 34" slacks." Yeah, he wears his 34" slacks under his belly and is constantly pulling his pants up.
I wear 40" pants and they are loose at the waist, but I know full well that my waist is not 40", the pants they sell in N America are not true to size. Unless you are buying a suit, that's when you find out how fat you are. I would guess my actual waist is 42-44", and the 40" pants are currently comfortably spacious at the waist.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#348

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:17 am

On the topic of pants size and waist size, I remember Izzy Narvaez saying he wore 36' inches pants when his waist size was 40 inches (at the height of his hardcore gomad-fueled phase). The before-after photos were stuff of nightmares.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#349

Post by DanCR » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:19 am

Hardartery wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:12 am
KyleSchuant wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:33 pm
Cheeki wrote:The data looks completely weird on this article. [...] the average male at the end of the program reports a 34 inches waistline and a weight 196 lbs.
I'd be honestly surprised if they were actually measuring people in their gyms, in my experience gym members are self-conscious as fuck about that, if you try to measure them at all, let alone in front of others at the gym, they just don't come back. More likely they simply asked them their stats. "Yeah, I wear 34" slacks." Yeah, he wears his 34" slacks under his belly and is constantly pulling his pants up.
I wear 40" pants and they are loose at the waist, but I know full well that my waist is not 40", the pants they sell in N America are not true to size. Unless you are buying a suit, that's when you find out how fat you are. I would guess my actual waist is 42-44", and the 40" pants are currently comfortably spacious at the waist.
Yup. A soul crushing experience.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#350

Post by KyleSchuant » Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:51 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:17 amI remember Izzy Narvaez
GOMAD, 9 months, 165 to 242lb. Then did steroids for a bit, then didn't touch them again. No half-measures with this lad.

As an aside, when I did the websearch to find that link, I also found his SS account. I thought it'd be interesting to see what his SS NLP numbers were. At a glance, he doesn't seem to have done a novice log, but I did find this one (from 2011!) in Rip's Q&A where he asks if he's doing the programme or not. Rip told the 5'6" 195lb 39.5" waist guy - BMI 31.5 - to ease up on the milk but keep eating 4,000kCal a day. The thread got tangled up arguing over just that advice, and was locked in the end. Interestingly, he also posted about getting... elbow tendonitis. So it seems like it ended as it does for many.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#351

Post by CaptainAwesome » Wed Jul 05, 2023 3:18 pm

It strikes me that I still haven't done one of these.

Coached y/n: only form check type stuff
Previous training y/n: nothing serious or lengthy, I fucked around unsuccessfully with weights in my youth and gave up on them for a long time
Injured during NLP: just back tweaks, chronic knee issues
Gender: Male
Age: 38 (now) 34 (first LP)
Height: 6'2"
Weight at start and end: 235 pounds before any SS work, 310 at the heaviest after the second go at LP
Squat, press, bench, deadlift and powerclean at end of novice linear progression
Squat: 290x5x3
Press 140x5x3
Bench 230x5x3
Deadlift 380x5
Power Clean 140x3x5

Any further comments?
These are kind of mixed, I ran multiple LPs trying to outdo myself each time, usually they were after cutting a lot of the weight from the prior LP. The most successful was the second try, that was the one where I started everything conservatively and also went apeshit with the bulking up to a max of 310 pounds. LPs after that second one would basically hit the wall at around the same spots on every lift.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#352

Post by CheekiBreekiFitness » Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:00 am

@CaptainAwesome That's some serious bulking !

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#353

Post by CaptainAwesome » Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:29 am

CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 4:00 am @CaptainAwesome That's some serious bulking !
I wanted to effectively rule out the "you're not eating enough" dismissal of why I wasn't able to LP into great numbers. I was also under the impression that when recovery is getting bad and shit is starting to hurt, you need to eat more food. That did not help with those problems at all, but it did net me another 10 pounds or so of bodyweight.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#354

Post by mbasic » Thu Jul 06, 2023 1:20 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:51 am
CheekiBreekiFitness wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:17 amI remember Izzy Narvaez
Then did steroids for a bit, then didn't touch them again. No half-measures with this lad.
Need to fix: Is a chronic steroid user now and has been for quite some time. He is quite public about it.

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#355

Post by KyleSchuant » Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:39 am

Thanks, CaptainAwesome. Spreadsheet updated.


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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#356

Post by csaba2208 » Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:54 am

Pretty late to this thread, but I had a pretty great run on LP. Went a bit overboard with Rip's advice on weight gain lol

BW 90kg-ish > 115kg
Squat 120kg > 195kg 3x5
DL 135kg > 212.5kg 1x5
Bench 95kg > 123kg 3x5
Press 65kg > 88kg 3x5

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#357

Post by SSJBartSimpson » Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:25 pm

How tall are you?

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#358

Post by KyleSchuant » Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:03 pm

csaba2208 wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:54 am Pretty late to this thread, but I had a pretty great run on LP. Went a bit overboard with Rip's advice on weight gain lol
Thankyou.

Please let us also know:
Gender
Age
Height
Whether you had a coach during this
Whether you had previous training
Whether you were injured during your NLP

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#359

Post by csaba2208 » Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:03 pm

Male
32 at the time
181cm
No coach
Training previously consisted of BB for some yrs
No injury

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Re: The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

#360

Post by KyleSchuant » Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:29 am

Thanks. Looks like you've got the biggest numbers we've seen. But then, not many people start with 120kg work sets squats. On the other hand - BMI 35. Going up a BMI category is pretty usual,

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